Anteriormente pedi ayuda con lo siguiente pero solo lo hice en ingles, disculpas.
ya e recivido algunas respuestas mas sigo un poco confusa.
en unas actas de nacimiento y bautizo se ve los terminos
Hijo ligitimo - hijo natural
yo tenia entendido que un hijo natural fue un hijo nacido a una madre soltera? mas en algunas actas se ve el nombre del nacido con el termino hijo natural de y los nombres de los padres, al igual se ve hijo ligitimo y nombre de los padres.
cual sera la diferencia.
Letty
Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es que en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Since the custom was to marry twice, once civil and once by the church could that make a difference in the status of the children when baptized? Could a civil marriage that might have preceded a church marriage not be seen as making the child ligetimate? There was such a long procedure to marry in the church with dispensations if there was a blood relationship that I can see marrying years apart in the church and civil.. plus I would think the church marriage is the one that would be considered more important. I noticed in the 1930 census for Jerez the record asks if they were married in both.. many people were not much to my surprise.
I'm using babel fish to translate this and to learn Spanish..
Linda in B.C.
Puesto que el costumbre era casar dos veces, una vez que sea civil y por la iglesia podría una vez que diferencia en el estado de los niños cuando está bautizada? ¿Podría una unión civil que no pudo haber precedido una unión de la iglesia ser visto como fabricación del ligetimate del niño? Había un procedimiento tan largo a casar en la iglesia con dispensaciones si hubiera una relación de la sangre que puedo ver los años aparte en la iglesia y civil que casan. más mí pensaría que la unión de la iglesia es la que sería considerado más importante. Noté en el censo 1930 para Jerez que el expediente pregunta si fueron casados en ambos. mucha gente no era mucha a mi sorpresa.
Erik Reynoso wrote:
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es que en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en el libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero tambien escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre y los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su padre era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo usaba el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre espanol).
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es que en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Erik, entonces lo siguiente es correcto.
hijo natural = mama y papa presentes no casados
hijo ligitimo = mama y papa casados legalmente
que es un hijo ilegitimo?
Letty
Ayuda
Hola Letty:
Hijo ilegítimo/natural tiene el mismo significado.
Saludos
Erik
Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
Don't worry about your spanish. About the case you're telling me "h.n. de
...." means "hijo natural" meaning his parents were not married. I
personally do not think the last name of his father was the same as his
mother's. Probably the father did not want to recognize the son and left he
and her mother. About "h. lego", could refer to his mother, born as a
legitimate child of his granparents.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en el
libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero tambien
escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre y
los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su padre
era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo usaba
el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre
espanol).
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es que
en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Erik,
Did you read the e-mail I originally sent in English titled "Hijo Legitimo/Hijo Natural"? That explains the case in detail.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
Don't worry about your spanish. About the case you're telling me "h.n. de
...." means "hijo natural" meaning his parents were not married. I
personally do not think the last name of his father was the same as his
mother's. Probably the father did not want to recognize the son and left he
and her mother. About "h. lego", could refer to his mother, born as a
legitimate child of his granparents.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Erik
----- Original Message ----->>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en el
libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero tambien
escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre y
los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su padre
era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo usaba
el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre
espanol).
Emilie Garcia>>
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es que
en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
I read it. About what I understood, the last name Talamantes, that was his
stepfather's, not his real father last name that is why he appeared as
Cervantes in his record. But I do have a doubt, when was Ysac Cervantes
baptized? In the record is established when he was born, do you have the
record for his baptism?
Regards.
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
Did you read the e-mail I originally sent in English titled "Hijo
Legitimo/Hijo Natural"? That explains the case in detail.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
Don't worry about your spanish. About the case you're telling me "h.n. de
...." means "hijo natural" meaning his parents were not married. I
personally do not think the last name of his father was the same as his
mother's. Probably the father did not want to recognize the son and left
he
and her mother. About "h. lego", could refer to his mother, born as a
legitimate child of his granparents.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Erik
----- Original Message -----
>>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en
el
libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero
tambien
escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre y
los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su padre
era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo usaba
el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre
espanol).
Emilie Garcia>>
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik
Reynoso
To:
research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es
que
en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Erik, de casualidad no sabes porque se usavan tantos terminos?
y en que momento se decide cual termino se va a usar Natural o ilegitimo?
letty
Ayuda
Estimada Letty:
No sabría decirte bien cuando se usaron, a estos términos podriamos sumarle
el término "hijo espurio". Sé que hay ciertas diferencias, ahorita me puse a
checar en un diccionario on-line y al parecer así están:
Hijo espurio: hijo ilegítimo de padre desconocido.
Hijo ilegítimo: hijo de padres no casados entre sí.
Hijo natural: hijo de padres no casados que podían casarse al momento de
tenerlo.
Estos son los términos del diccionario sin embargo es distinto en la
genealogía ya que los términos se usaban y usan indistintamente, en otro
correo mencioné al Virrey Antonio de Mendoza y a su hija María de Mendoza,
ella es conocida por ser hija natural de él en muchos círculos genealógicos
sin embargo si nos apegamos al diccionario era hija ilegítima.
Cuestión de semántica.
Saludos
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
> Erik, de casualidad no sabes porque se usavan tantos terminos?
> y en que momento se decide cual termino se va a usar Natural o ilegitimo?
>
> letty
Ayuda
Erik,
Yes, I quoted the birth record for Ysac in the original message in English below. I was wondering why Ysac said his father's name was Encarnacion Cervantes iinstead of Talamantes in the birth records for his own children.
Emilie
---Original Message---
---the Cervantes name came from Ysac's mother Dorotea Cervantes who did not marry Encarnacion Talamantes until after Ysac's birth and that of his two brothers. Encarnacion and Dorotea were not married until July 10, 1839, three years after the birth of Ysac and six years after the birth of Ysac's brother Sotero. The Talamantes I believe were part Indian from Tlaltenango, and the Cerbantes' were espanoles from Encarnacion de Diaz.
I found Ysac's birth record for June 4, 1836 in "Hijos Legitimos" for La Encarnacion Church, Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco. In the margin the record reads: "h. lego.", yet in the body of the record it reads "bautise solamente---Jose Ysac de dos dias nacido en esta Villa h. n. de Dorotea Cerbantes. A. M. Anto. Cerbantes y Juliana Rovalcaba----. The record for Sotero reads the same, "h. lego." in the margin, and "h. n." in the body of the record for April 24, 1833. No father or paternal grandparents are listed in either record. ----
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
I read it. About what I understood, the last name Talamantes, that was his
stepfather's, not his real father last name that is why he appeared as
Cervantes in his record. But I do have a doubt, when was Ysac Cervantes
baptized? In the record is established when he was born, do you have the
record for his baptism?
Regards.
Erik
----- Original Message ----->>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
Did you read the e-mail I originally sent in English titled "Hijo
Legitimo/Hijo Natural"? That explains the case in detail.
Emilie>>
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
Don't worry about your spanish. About the case you're telling me "h.n. de
...." means "hijo natural" meaning his parents were not married. I
personally do not think the last name of his father was the same as his
mother's. Probably the father did not want to recognize the son and left
he
and her mother. About "h. lego", could refer to his mother, born as a
legitimate child of his granparents.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Erik
----- Original Message -----
>>>>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en
el
libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero
tambien
escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre y
los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su padre
era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo usaba
el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre
espanol).
Emilie Garcia>>>>
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik
Reynoso
To:
research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es
que
en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
That's a difficult question that might have his origin in personal issues.
It seems intentional because you say that repeats in the birth records of
his own children. An option would be to look in the records in the region
some years before he was born for this "Encarnación Cervantes". We could
receive a surprise by discovering that he was his real father.
Regards.
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
Yes, I quoted the birth record for Ysac in the original message in English
below. I was wondering why Ysac said his father's name was Encarnacion
Cervantes iinstead of Talamantes in the birth records for his own children.
Emilie
---Original Message---
---the Cervantes name came from Ysac's mother Dorotea Cervantes who did not
marry Encarnacion Talamantes until after Ysac's birth and that of his two
brothers. Encarnacion and Dorotea were not married until July 10, 1839,
three years after the birth of Ysac and six years after the birth of Ysac's
brother Sotero. The Talamantes I believe were part Indian from Tlaltenango,
and the Cerbantes' were espanoles from Encarnacion de Diaz.
I found Ysac's birth record for June 4, 1836 in "Hijos Legitimos" for La
Encarnacion Church, Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco. In the margin the record
reads: "h. lego.", yet in the body of the record it reads "bautise
solamente---Jose Ysac de dos dias nacido en esta Villa h. n. de Dorotea
Cerbantes. A. M. Anto. Cerbantes y Juliana Rovalcaba----. The record for
Sotero reads the same, "h. lego." in the margin, and "h. n." in the body of
the record for April 24, 1833. No father or paternal grandparents are listed
in either record. ----
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
I read it. About what I understood, the last name Talamantes, that was his
stepfather's, not his real father last name that is why he appeared as
Cervantes in his record. But I do have a doubt, when was Ysac Cervantes
baptized? In the record is established when he was born, do you have the
record for his baptism?
Regards.
Erik
----- Original Message -----
>>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
Did you read the e-mail I originally sent in English titled "Hijo
Legitimo/Hijo Natural"? That explains the case in detail.
Emilie>>
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik
Reynoso
To:
research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Dear Emilie:
Don't worry about your spanish. About the case you're telling me "h.n.
de
...." means "hijo natural" meaning his parents were not married. I
personally do not think the last name of his father was the same as his
mother's. Probably the father did not want to recognize the son and left
he
and her mother. About "h. lego", could refer to his mother, born as a
legitimate child of his granparents.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Erik
----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Erik,
En el caso en question que envi en mi e-mail horita donde el registro en
el
libro de hijos legitimos: en el margen escribieron "h. lego." pero
tambien
escribieron "h. n. de----" y solamente escribieron el nombre de la madre
y
los abuelos maternos. Este hijo despues decia que el apellido de su
padre
era el mismo de su madre pero el padre tenia otro apellido. El hijo
usaba
el apellido de su madre. Que piensa deste caso? (Dispense mi pobre
espanol).
Emilie Garcia>>>>
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik
Reynoso
To:
research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ayuda
Estimada Leticia:
Un hijo natural es un hijo bastardo, fuera del matrimonio. Por eso es
que
en
las actas aparecen los nombres de los padres aún siendo hijo natural.
Saludos
Erik Andrés Reynoso Palomar y Márquez
Ayuda
Gracias Erik
tu definiciones me ayudan mucho, Letty
Ayuda
Here's yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
My mother-in-law "fue robada", which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law's house where within a time when all the "hoopla"
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
- and this is a very small town!
I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Ayuda
Esperanza you reminded me of my paternal grandparents marriage story in Jerez Zacatecas in 1914. My 20 year old grandfather Epitacio Castanon was away from home with his donkey caravan selling booze when he was robbed by bandits. They were going to take his mules and he told them if they did he'd be out of business with no more booze to sell in their territory so they let him keep his donkeys. When he got home to El Durazno he found his friend had stolen his girlfriend and married her. So my grandfather stole his friends jilted girlfriend Juana Sanchez. She was still 14 so he left her at the priests house for 3 days until she turned 15 then he married her in a civil ceremony and then later in a church ceremony.. She said he stole her from her home so she had to marry him. They remained married until his death in 1965. Your story is the first other 'stolen' bride story I had heard. Thank you for sharing the memory.
Linda in B.C.
Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Here's yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
My mother-in-law "fue robada", which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law's house where within a time when all the "hoopla"
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
- and this is a very small town!
I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Ayuda
Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a "pact". She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.
Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before - this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband - despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!
Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride's hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride's father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Ayuda
Now you've taken me to my maternal side of the family. My gr-grandmother was date raped at age 18 and became pregnant with my grandmother, that was 1901 in Tamazula Jalisco. Her father put her out of the house because she had sullied the family name. He worked with her attacker and never blamed him. She moved into an abandoned house the equivilante of 3 blocks from her father and her brothers would bring her her 'dario' or daily ration until after the birth of my grandmother. She continued to live there alone with my grandmother for 3 years gleaning corn from the fields and making taquitos to sell along the roadside to people going to Colima. After 3 years her father arranged a marriage to an older man he worked with and he moved into her home with her and my grandmother. She did not get a vote on whether she wanted to marry him or not, after the marriage her father welcomed her back into his home.. Life was hard and the standards of the day didn't make things any
easier for a woman. I have nothing but respect for the fortitude our forbears showed, they were survivors.
Just a side note, this rapist did it to another girl a bit later and her brothers stabbed him to death! Honor was handled in many different ways... Genetics makes him my gr-grandfather but I have been unable to find anything on him at all. My grandmother always said he was a sailer from Spain... that' the story anyway...
Linda in B.C.
Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a "pact". She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.
Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before - this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband - despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!
Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride's hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride's father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Ayuda
There is a difference in "stolen brides" situations!
there are brides that are stolen, so they are called "robadas", which mean the bride was not required in love but raped; against the will,
and there are brides that are called "juidas" with the letter "j" sounding gutural like in Jimenez, this brides make an appointment to be swept away by the romeo.
Next step is to be married, frecuently when child is on the way, some "juidos" or "huidos" present their respects to the old ones and ask for pardon.
My father asked for my sister-in-law´s hand to her father for my older brother, that family were living in Veracruz deep in the jungle at tha time;
Don Andres, the father was very "catholic" so he set the condition that a priest has to ask for such hand. My father told my brother "do what you have to do, you are on your own, I have no time nor money for a priest transportation", so my brother and his bride make an appointment, she jumped trough the wooden window on a horse and with my brother she became a "juida".
After "honeymoon" they got married and when she was very pregnant they went together into the jungle and ask her parents for pardon.
It is a say in the family when somebody refers she was stolen, other one clarifies "no, she went on her will".
Erlinda Castanon-Long escribió:
Esperanza you reminded me of my paternal grandparents marriage story in Jerez Zacatecas in 1914. My 20 year old grandfather Epitacio Castanon was away from home with his donkey caravan selling booze when he was robbed by bandits. They were going to take his mules and he told them if they did he'd be out of business with no more booze to sell in their territory so they let him keep his donkeys. When he got home to El Durazno he found his friend had stolen his girlfriend and married her. So my grandfather stole his friends jilted girlfriend Juana Sanchez. She was still 14 so he left her at the priests house for 3 days until she turned 15 then he married her in a civil ceremony and then later in a church ceremony.. She said he stole her from her home so she had to marry him. They remained married until his death in 1965. Your story is the first other 'stolen' bride story I had heard. Thank you for sharing the memory.
Linda in B.C.
Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Here's yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
My mother-in-law "fue robada", which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law's house where within a time when all the "hoopla"
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
- and this is a very small town!
I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Horse Theft: Ayuda
Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
>Here's yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
>recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
>
>My mother-in-law "fue robada", which was often done in the olden days were
>dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
>would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
>weekend.
>
WOW. My Great Grandmother Antonia Santa Maria, was supposedly stolen
away on horseback by my Great Grandfather, Francisco Diaz in the
Tepetongo Area. They stayed together until separated by death. Thanks
Esperanza for bringing this up as I though it was a unique situation.
guess not.
joseph
ps: read her story: "Antonia Santa Maria's Story"
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13828
> Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
>stay at her mother-in-law's house where within a time when all the "hoopla"
>of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
>civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
>was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
>two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
>law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
>wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
>- and this is a very small town!
>
>I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
>while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
>concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
>
>Esperanza
>Chicagoland area