Hi Emily,
I'm addressing this to you because you were the most rational in
explaining the controversy.
What I don't understand is why the Pope is all upset about a religion
he does not recognize as legitimate taking a list of dead peoples
names and saying something (he does not recognize as being
legitimate) over them. It will not change what those people believed
when they were alive. Nothing can change what the deceased believe
after they die. They're dead, they can't change their mind. If they
were Catholic when alive, that's what they are now. If they were
Jewish when alive, nothing can change that. They remain what they
believed when alive.
It looks like anyone can go to a cemetery and copy a list of names
from the tombstones and claim to re-baptize them and the Pope will
recognize it's legitimacy by getting upset. Doesn't he have faith
the Catholic religion is strong enough to resist posthumous baptisms
from the Mormons?
I certainly hope the Pope doesn't follow through with this. It will
hurt more than genealogists.
Linda
The Pope and the Mormons
Hi, Linda,
Thanks for your sentiments. I appreciate it.
What discourages me about the Pope's letter is that now the local parishes will have more of an excuse to brush off us genealogists. Many don't want to take the time, or are afraid and suspicious that people might cause them to betray the confidentiality of the deceased.
Governments proclaimed that after 70 years confidentiality is not the concern for the deceased as for those still alive. I have had much trouble getting information from the churches in New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas whose records the diocese never permitted filming by the Mormons. Now they can just wave the Pope's or bishops' letters at me and tell me they have an edict not to share any information, just because it will be easier for them to not have to bother with such requests.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Linda
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:01 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons
Hi Emily,
I'm addressing this to you because you were the most rational in
explaining the controversy.
What I don't understand is why the Pope is all upset about a religion
he does not recognize as legitimate taking a list of dead peoples
names and saying something (he does not recognize as being
legitimate) over them. It will not change what those people believed
when they were alive. Nothing can change what the deceased believe
after they die. They're dead, they can't change their mind. If they
were Catholic when alive, that's what they are now. If they were
Jewish when alive, nothing can change that. They remain what they
believed when alive.
It looks like anyone can go to a cemetery and copy a list of names
from the tombstones and claim to re-baptize them and the Pope will
recognize it's legitimacy by getting upset. Doesn't he have faith
the Catholic religion is strong enough to resist posthumous baptisms
from the Mormons?
I certainly hope the Pope doesn't follow through with this. It will
hurt more than genealogists.
Linda
The Pope and the Mormons
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed by
those same clerics.
The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep records, in
lieu of local government.
It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.
Karr
The Pope and the Mormons
I disagree with this view. The Catholic Church is a religion; not a
government. While I agree that the Pope's decision is unfortunate for
those of us with interest in genealogical work, I believe directing our
criticisms at the Catholic Church ignores the fact that another religion
is using the Church's records for improper purposes; purposes that
offend the Catholic religion. Each religion has its own doctrines and
beliefs. So to argue that it does not hurt the Catholic Church to have
another religion use its own records to perform acts that offend its
beliefs is to ignore the fundamental reason any religions exist. The
Catholic Church is not telling Mormons how to practice their religion;
it is simply saying that we are not going to be accomplices to acts that
offend ours. Perhaps efforts should be made to ask the LDS to stop
baptizing deceased Catholics, which is the real reason that the Catholic
Church has closed its doors to LDS. The use of the records was a
privilege, which the LDS abused.
I also think it is somewhat ironic to claim that the Pope's decision has
not basis in Scripture. I find that the LDS decision to baptize
deceased Catholics has no basis in LDS philosophy. Most non-Mormons are
aware of LDS's interest in genealogy, but most people do not know the
reason for this interest. Of course there's nothing wrong with being
interested in genealogy, but it's far from just an interest for the LDS.
For the LDS, the whole point behind genealogical work is the idea that
those who died as non-Mormons can be baptized vicariously and thus
become Mormons posthumously. Before anyone can go to an LDS temple and,
among other things, be baptized for the dead, he first must be judged
worthy to go there. A person can't just show up at the temple doors and
expect admittance. No one is given entrance without producing a current
"temple recommend," rather like a spiritual identification card, which
certifies his status as a righteous Mormon. In other words, if I wanted
to be baptized Mormon, I would have to be judged worthy before being
baptized. Yet, deceased Catholics are baptized posthumously without any
evidence that they desired to become Mormons or believe in the Mormon
doctrines.
I also strongly disagree that deceased Catholics would be upset that the
Pope took steps to keep LDS from offending Catholic beliefs. On the
contrary, deceased Catholics would be overwhelmingly disturbed by the
arrogance of LDS to select their religion, given the evidence that their
choice was to be Catholic. My grandfather was a devote Catholic and
would be mortified to learn that the LDS posthumously baptized him into
their religion; a religion he does not belong to, or believe in. This
holds true for the deceased Catholic popes that have been posthumously
baptized by LDS. Catholics are not the only ones protesting these acts.
Jews, too, have expressed their anger at LDS. This issue boiled over
when LDS baptized holocaust victims, including people like Anne Frank.
This protest led to a 1995 agreement by LDS to remove 400,000 Jewish
names from its records. In my eyes, this is not a controversy about the
Catholics Church withholding religious (not government) records from
LDS; but the abuse by LDS of the privilege to access the records of
another religion.
I support any effort to convince LDS to stop abusing this privilege.
-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Karr
Wolfe
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:37 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman
Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman
Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I
feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create
and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed
by
those same clerics.
The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis
in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of
the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep
records, in
lieu of local government.
It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican
maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.
Karr
The Pope and the Mormons
I agree with Linda and Karr, and further in my humble opinion, I believe that we are all here to help one another with our genealogy research. Bashing Mormons is not part of our research, and I believe that whoever has negative comments that do not deal with research, should be dealt with privately with those that agree with such comments. I am sure many of us don't want to waste our valuable time with pettiness.
Thank you. - Esther Jordan
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed by
those same clerics.
The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep records, in
lieu of local government.
It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.
Karr
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The Pope and the Mormons
And neither is bashing Catholics. So, I suggest that people refrain
from making negative comments about any religion.
-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Esther
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons
I agree with Linda and Karr, and further in my humble opinion, I
believe that we are all here to help one another with our genealogy
research. Bashing Mormons is not part of our research, and I believe
that whoever has negative comments that do not deal with research,
should be dealt with privately with those that agree with such comments.
I am sure many of us don't want to waste our valuable time with
pettiness.
Thank you. - Esther Jordan
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman
Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman
Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I
feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create
and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed
by
those same clerics.
The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis
in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of
the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep
records, in
lieu of local government.
It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican
maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.
Karr
Focusing the Discussion: was - The Pope and the Mormons
Yes I like the direction of Esther's message. I'm not saying that we
need to stop the discussion but maybe focus it on the goals and purpose
of the group: "serious research of Jalisco, Zacatecas, and/or
Aguascalientes."
So if we can move this discussion in this direction I'm all for it
continuing, but if the discussion moves any further away from the focus
of the group then I'm in favor of taking it to private email.
If you continue on this thread please choose your words carefully.
thanks,
joseph
====================
Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)
Esther wrote:
> I agree with Linda and Karr, and further in my humble opinion, I believe that we are all here to help one another with our genealogy research. Bashing Mormons is not part of our research, and I believe that whoever has negative comments that do not deal with research, should be dealt with privately with those that agree with such comments. I am sure many of us don't want to waste our valuable time with pettiness.
>
> Thank you. - Esther Jordan
>
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman Church
> as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman Catholicism
> has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
> recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
> jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
> Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
> withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I feel
> certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create and
> maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed by
> those same clerics.
>
> The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
> make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis in
> Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
> analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of the
> implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep records, in
> lieu of local government.
>
> It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican maintain
> its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
> partially perform the duties of local government.
>
> Karr
>
The Pope and the Mormons
Ok, back to what we might do to advance our research. I am now reconsidering posting my genealogy on LDS site in respect for my ancestors and their beliefs. It was my understanding that the goal of the Mormons was simply to find everyone. This of course limits information which is counteractive to genealogy.
Maybe we should contact both the Mormon and the Catholics. Request that they come to some kind of understanding. Right now the trust has been broken and this creates problems for all parties. The mistrust will slow the progression of the work of the Mormons and create problems for those re-discovering their Catholic roots and the importance this religion played in their family history. If no understanding and tolerance of other's beliefs is forthcoming, I agree that we should request that the Catholic church make records more easily accessible to researchers.
My thinking is we need to contact both sides of the conflict and address how this is affecting us. Does anyone have contact information for the Mormon and Catholic Churches? May I suggest all of us writing letters directed to the same persons in each faith. Fifty letters to one person high up in each faith may have more an impact than possibly one or two letters to one of the numerous Heads of the Mormons and one or two letters to numerous Bishops.
These letters would of course not attack either faith, but just address the difficulty that the conflict will cause in our research and how this impacts our respect for the religion. We need to come up with a winning solution for us, while showing the religious leaders how it will positively affect their goals.
Maureen Bejar
The Pope and the Mormons
Has the Catholic church asked the LDS church to return all documentation? I
don't think that is the case. Based on the article I just read at
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm, it looks like they
want to halt records from now on. Is that correct?
The article also states that the Catholic and Mormon churches are planning
on having a dialogue about this soon. I checked the Vatican site, but there
is no way to submit a request or comment. I did find an email submission
form on my local diocese's web page. Maybe we should all submit a request to
our own diocese to get this rescinded?
What do you think?
Veronica Vidaure Rahorn
The Pope and the Mormons
I am Mormon! The Catholic church wants to halt documentation starting now. All previous is there's to keep. The good thing is we got all the records on average 1910 and all previous years. So I think everyone in the world should do their genealogy in this generation.
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Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends.
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The Pope and the Mormons
I agree. In either case, neither one of the two sides will change their
views. The question is what can we do about this? There was a comment on
another note if the Vatican is going to deny access to those records perhaps
they should do as the Mormons in the sense that they should set up family
centers to grant access to those who want to solely look at historical
records.
--
America Calleros
The Pope and the Mormons
The Catholic Archives of the DIocese has those records. In Austen, Tx there is a Catholic Archive for that Diocese. I do don't know about the others. I know in Monterrey, the nums access the original documents, but am not sure. - Mickey or Lester is thir correct?
--
Esther A. Herold
-------------- Original message from "America Calleros": --------------
> I agree. In either case, neither one of the two sides will change their
> views. The question is what can we do about this? There was a comment on
> another note if the Vatican is going to deny access to those records perhaps
> they should do as the Mormons in the sense that they should set up family
> centers to grant access to those who want to solely look at historical
> records.
> --
> America Calleros
The Pope and the Mormons Esther Herold
Hi there Esther ,
Let me see if I read this correctly , the question here is that there are original documents in Monterrey that nuns are in possession of . If that's the question then yes , there are two nuns that are in charge of documents for just about all of the state of Nuevo Leon . They will type the info found for you at a modest cost . A person can actually see and hold the books where the docs. are .
Welester> The Catholic Archives of the DIocese has those records. In Austen, Tx there is a Catholic Archive for that Diocese. I do don't know about the others. I know in Monterrey, the nums access the original documents, but am not sure. - Mickey or Lester is thir correct?> --> Esther A. Herold>
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Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
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The Pope and the Mormons
Felix -- you said "In my eyes, this is not a controversy about the
Catholics Church withholding religious (not government) records from
LDS; but the abuse by LDS of the privilege to access the records of
another religion....I support any effort to convince LDS to stop abusing this privilege".
I think what Karr meant was that the Church was the State before separation of the two, and those old Catholic records functioned as civil records. Scholars and other approved learned people had access to them for genealogical and other purposes even then. Also, I would hope that the LDS church would not remove the Catholic records as they did the Jewish records after they realized the re-baptisms were abuse of the privelege of obtaining the records, but leave them in for our perusal with the understanding that they would only desist in classifying them as baptized Mormons.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Felix De La Torre
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons
I disagree with this view. The Catholic Church is a religion; not a
government. While I agree that the Pope's decision is unfortunate for
those of us with interest in genealogical work, I believe directing our
criticisms at the Catholic Church ignores the fact that another religion
is using the Church's records for improper purposes; purposes that
offend the Catholic religion. Each religion has its own doctrines and
beliefs. So to argue that it does not hurt the Catholic Church to have
another religion use its own records to perform acts that offend its
beliefs is to ignore the fundamental reason any religions exist. The
Catholic Church is not telling Mormons how to practice their religion;
it is simply saying that we are not going to be accomplices to acts that
offend ours. Perhaps efforts should be made to ask the LDS to stop
baptizing deceased Catholics, which is the real reason that the Catholic
Church has closed its doors to LDS. The use of the records was a
privilege, which the LDS abused.
I also think it is somewhat ironic to claim that the Pope's decision has
not basis in Scripture. I find that the LDS decision to baptize
deceased Catholics has no basis in LDS philosophy. Most non-Mormons are
aware of LDS's interest in genealogy, but most people do not know the
reason for this interest. Of course there's nothing wrong with being
interested in genealogy, but it's far from just an interest for the LDS.
For the LDS, the whole point behind genealogical work is the idea that
those who died as non-Mormons can be baptized vicariously and thus
become Mormons posthumously. Before anyone can go to an LDS temple and,
among other things, be baptized for the dead, he first must be judged
worthy to go there. A person can't just show up at the temple doors and
expect admittance. No one is given entrance without producing a current
"temple recommend," rather like a spiritual identification card, which
certifies his status as a righteous Mormon. In other words, if I wanted
to be baptized Mormon, I would have to be judged worthy before being
baptized. Yet, deceased Catholics are baptized posthumously without any
evidence that they desired to become Mormons or believe in the Mormon
doctrines.
I also strongly disagree that deceased Catholics would be upset that the
Pope took steps to keep LDS from offending Catholic beliefs. On the
contrary, deceased Catholics would be overwhelmingly disturbed by the
arrogance of LDS to select their religion, given the evidence that their
choice was to be Catholic. My grandfather was a devote Catholic and
would be mortified to learn that the LDS posthumously baptized him into
their religion; a religion he does not belong to, or believe in. This
holds true for the deceased Catholic popes that have been posthumously
baptized by LDS. Catholics are not the only ones protesting these acts.
Jews, too, have expressed their anger at LDS. This issue boiled over
when LDS baptized holocaust victims, including people like Anne Frank.
This protest led to a 1995 agreement by LDS to remove 400,000 Jewish
names from its records. In my eyes, this is not a controversy about the
Catholics Church withholding religious (not government) records from
LDS; but the abuse by LDS of the privilege to access the records of
another religion.
I support any effort to convince LDS to stop abusing this privilege.
-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Karr
Wolfe
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:37 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman
Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman
Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I
feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create
and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed
by
those same clerics.
The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis
in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of
the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep
records, in
lieu of local government.
It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican
maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.
Karr
The Pope and the Mormons
This is a very interesting view, I am a Mormon. I nmy opinion I believe we should only baptize those who are in our family in respect to the catholic church. We have the right to baptize those who are in relation to us. One thing I dont agree with my church is baptizing just anyone without any consent of another party who isnt related to a person. For example I baptize my ancestors because I descend from them, Im not gonna go around baptzing people who I have no idea who they are. We dont baptize the dead as mormons. This is a very contraversial matter. ITs very difficult to explain. I totally agree that non-mormons should be able to continue having access to these records if they were to be discontinued because geneaolgy is really about discovering who and where you came from not just to baptize people. Also, just b/c we baptize the dead doesnt mean they will accept the baptism. We believe once we baptize them they have the option to say yes or no. About your comment on the temple and the deceased no knowing anything on doctrine; we believe that all dead are taught and once someone baptises them they can choose to accept it or not.
-D. Daniel Méndez del Camino
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