By juanitahenniger | 7:10 PM MST, Sun September 30, 2012
I've come across a notation under the Padres title that I don't know what it means. It looks like w enclosed in a circle. Does anyone know what this means? Thanks
Since the notation is below each given name and surname, it seems to me it is "id.", which is an abbreviation of the Latin "idem" (identical), which as you guessed was used is like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry".
Victoriano Navarro
I'm sorry. I seems I provided the wrong link. Here is the link I need help with. The symbol is used under the titles Padres and Padrinos. I've never seen it before in my research and I wondered if it was sort like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry". Thank you for taking the time to look at this.
I'm sorry. I seems I provided the wrong link. Here is the link I need help with. The symbol is used under the titles Padres and Padrinos. I've never seen it before in my research and I wondered if it was sort like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry". Thank you for taking the time to look at this.
Juanita
Thank you for clarifying the records. I assumed one was the dispensa that
had been mentioned on Nuestros Ranchos as well as another being the chart
from PARES
(1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group
sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el
Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias
generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice
que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca,
Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.
(2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato,
245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of
Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de
Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical
charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I
posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,
(3) Her mother is Acatlan, described as a "favored secondary wife" of
Moctezuma (she is named in the very early genealogical charts in the AGI at
PARES). I have a secondary source that names her father as "Cihuatoatl
Tlilpotocantzin." "Cihuatoatl" is likely a title. I have no information on
him. More information may be available in Amada Lopez de Menezes, "Notas y
documentos acera la descendencia de Moteczuma II," HID 1955, 381-410. I
believe this journal is actually "Hidalguia," but I am unable to find a
copy. Amada Lopez de Menezes has numerous publications on Moctezuma and his
family, as well as other historical topics.
(4) This document is a dispensa for Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo which has
been discussed previously in this forum (and the link provided ...
ultimately thanks to Claudia's work in the Guadalajara diocesan records ...
see her website for more information). This document is the earliest
document that I've seen that actually names Petronila de Moctezuma and
Martin Navarro. Her ancestry is not provided there, as it is not relevant
for the dispensation.
>
> Robert,
>
> Thank you for clarifying the records. I assumed one was the dispensa that
> had been mentioned on Nuestros Ranchos as well as another being the chart
> from PARES
>
> Regards,
> Armando
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Enviado por gpf13 el Vie, 2014-01-03 14:47.
>
> Some comments on these documents ...
>
> (1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group
> sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el
> Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
> hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias
> generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice
> que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca,
> Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.
>
> (2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato,
> 245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of
> Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de
> Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical
> charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I
> posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,
>
> (3) Her mother is Acatlan, described as a "favored secondary wife" of
> Moctezuma (she is named in the very early genealogical charts in the AGI at
> PARES). I have a secondary source that names her father as "Cihuatoatl
> Tlilpotocantzin." "Cihuatoatl" is likely a title. I have no information on
> him. More information may be available in Amada Lopez de Menezes, "Notas y
> documentos acera la descendencia de Moteczuma II," HID 1955, 381-410. I
> believe this journal is actually "Hidalguia," but I am unable to find a
> copy. Amada Lopez de Menezes has numerous publications on Moctezuma and his
> family, as well as other historical topics.
>
> (4) This document is a dispensa for Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo which has
> been discussed previously in this forum (and the link provided ...
> ultimately thanks to Claudia's work in the Guadalajara diocesan records ...
> see her website for more information). This document is the earliest
> document that I've seen that actually names Petronila de Moctezuma and
> Martin Navarro. Her ancestry is not provided there, as it is not relevant
> for the dispensation.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA
>
>
I can't find the word Padres nor the notation you describe in the document. Is it written or printed? Below the surname of the priest (Mata) there is a drawing which is the rúbrica, some kind of personal drawing which may be part of one's signature. Nowadays many people use a rúbrica as their signature.
Victoriano Navarro
Notations in Confirmation
Since the notation is below each given name and surname, it seems to me it is "id.", which is an abbreviation of the Latin "idem" (identical), which as you guessed was used is like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry".
Victoriano Navarro
Notations in Confirmation
Victoriano,
It is what I thought, but I appreciate the clarification.
Juanita Henniger
Notations in Confirmation
I'm sorry. I seems I provided the wrong link. Here is the link I need help with. The symbol is used under the titles Padres and Padrinos. I've never seen it before in my research and I wondered if it was sort like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry". Thank you for taking the time to look at this.
Juanita
Notations in Confirmation
Juanita,
No link was provided.
Alicia
________________________________
From: "juanitahenniger@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Notations in Confirmation
I'm sorry. I seems I provided the wrong link. Here is the link I need help with. The symbol is used under the titles Padres and Padrinos. I've never seen it before in my research and I wondered if it was sort like the " " when we mean "same as previous entry". Thank you for taking the time to look at this.
Juanita
Notations in Confirmation
Sorry, some days I'm such an airhead.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18192-47100-18?cc=1860864&wc…
Juanita \
Documents
Robert,
Thank you for clarifying the records. I assumed one was the dispensa that
had been mentioned on Nuestros Ranchos as well as another being the chart
from PARES
Regards,
Armando
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enviado por gpf13 el Vie, 2014-01-03 14:47.
Some comments on these documents ...
(1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group
sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el
Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias
generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice
que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca,
Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.
(2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato,
245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of
Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de
Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical
charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I
posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,
(3) Her mother is Acatlan, described as a "favored secondary wife" of
Moctezuma (she is named in the very early genealogical charts in the AGI at
PARES). I have a secondary source that names her father as "Cihuatoatl
Tlilpotocantzin." "Cihuatoatl" is likely a title. I have no information on
him. More information may be available in Amada Lopez de Menezes, "Notas y
documentos acera la descendencia de Moteczuma II," HID 1955, 381-410. I
believe this journal is actually "Hidalguia," but I am unable to find a
copy. Amada Lopez de Menezes has numerous publications on Moctezuma and his
family, as well as other historical topics.
(4) This document is a dispensa for Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo which has
been discussed previously in this forum (and the link provided ...
ultimately thanks to Claudia's work in the Guadalajara diocesan records ...
see her website for more information). This document is the earliest
document that I've seen that actually names Petronila de Moctezuma and
Martin Navarro. Her ancestry is not provided there, as it is not relevant
for the dispensation.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Documents
Sorry, I meant thank you George.
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Armando wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> Thank you for clarifying the records. I assumed one was the dispensa that
> had been mentioned on Nuestros Ranchos as well as another being the chart
> from PARES
>
> Regards,
> Armando
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Enviado por gpf13 el Vie, 2014-01-03 14:47.
>
> Some comments on these documents ...
>
> (1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group
> sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el
> Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre
> hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias
> generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice
> que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca,
> Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.
>
> (2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato,
> 245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of
> Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de
> Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical
> charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I
> posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,
>
> (3) Her mother is Acatlan, described as a "favored secondary wife" of
> Moctezuma (she is named in the very early genealogical charts in the AGI at
> PARES). I have a secondary source that names her father as "Cihuatoatl
> Tlilpotocantzin." "Cihuatoatl" is likely a title. I have no information on
> him. More information may be available in Amada Lopez de Menezes, "Notas y
> documentos acera la descendencia de Moteczuma II," HID 1955, 381-410. I
> believe this journal is actually "Hidalguia," but I am unable to find a
> copy. Amada Lopez de Menezes has numerous publications on Moctezuma and his
> family, as well as other historical topics.
>
> (4) This document is a dispensa for Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo which has
> been discussed previously in this forum (and the link provided ...
> ultimately thanks to Claudia's work in the Guadalajara diocesan records ...
> see her website for more information). This document is the earliest
> document that I've seen that actually names Petronila de Moctezuma and
> Martin Navarro. Her ancestry is not provided there, as it is not relevant
> for the dispensation.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA
>
>
Notations in Confirmation
I can't find the word Padres nor the notation you describe in the document. Is it written or printed? Below the surname of the priest (Mata) there is a drawing which is the rúbrica, some kind of personal drawing which may be part of one's signature. Nowadays many people use a rúbrica as their signature.
Victoriano Navarro
Notations in Confirmation
Opps, sorry, here is the link to the document.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-20473-6640-16?cc=1860864&…
Juanita