Busco información y contactos con descendientes de Moctuzuma II, en particular con hijos de Leonor Valderrama de Moctezuma, madre de Petronila de Moctezuma.
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27 May 1573
27 May 1573
27 May 1573
Thank you
________________________________ on behalf of josehumbertosuarez@hotmail.com
From: Research
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:49 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 27 May 1573
27 May 1573
Earliest evidence
The earliest evidence that I had previous to this find was 1574. This find has a date of 27 May 1573 so it is the earliest evidence that I know of.
Thank you Denise,
Rick A.Ricci
thanks to Raul Munoz
Hi Rick and others who have responded to my comment.
I looked back through earlier comments and found one by Raul Munoz who describes this early decree - he mentions this document in a comment here is this thread on 2019-10-08 21:28. My apologies to Raul, that I forgot I had seen his earlier post!
I think the significance of the document must lie in the fact that the Leonor de Valderrama who is identified at the mother of Fernando and wife of Diego Arias Sotelo, is also identfied as the granddaughter of Moctezuma, and that the document was created - timewise - close to Moctezuma and people who knew him and his children. This should help settle the debate about whether the wife of Diego Arias Sotelo also descended from Cortez (she did not...).
There is another entry in PARES, Archivo General de Indias - licencia de pasajeros a criados de Leonor de Valderrama - from 1546, but unfortunately there are no images of it, so its not possible to confirm its the Leonor Valderrama subject of these comments. Its possible this document has already been mentioned somewhere in NR.... Note (from Chipman's Moctezumas Children p. 76): Mariana/Leonor Moctezuma's first husband Juan Paz died by 1529, "and about two years later, Mariana married Christobal de Valderrama" who then died at the end of 1537. So, Leonor wife of Diego Arias Sotelo could have been old enough to request two servants, or else her mother or guardian (Diego Sotelo) could have done so.
Anyway, again, apologies to Raul that I jumped the gun about the royal decree - I will try to be more careful in the future!
Regards
Denise
Moctezuma II descendientes
I just found a dowry record of another ancestor of mine, Berenguela De Montemayor, that names her father as Martin Alfonso De Montemayor. He does not name Berenguela in his will. Married daughters were often excluded from wills. This female ancestor was a great grandmother of Ruy Diaz De Mendoza. This is the documented line of ancestry of Ruy Diaz De Mendoza that is married to Catalina Salazar. This is another of multiple instances that I have seen where a daughter who is named as receiving a dowry from their father is not named in his will as he has already “ taken care “ of her financially.
The Lope Ruiz De Esparza record that I saw only named his mother-in-law as Moctezuma’s granddaughter, but Guillermo Teresa De Tovar notified me that he had a record in his possession that identified her as part of the Sotelo Moctezuma family. He did not show it to me but he did send me a “verbatim quote”. He said that he would send me a copy but he passed away before was able to pass it on. Other records show Petronila Moctezuma as madrina of children of the Sotelo Valderrama Moctezuma family.
Guillermo Tovar De Teresa showed a little frustration with me when I told him that there was a small mistake in an SHARR article that he coauthored with Mariano Gonzalez Leal and other authors.. The person that belonged in that line of descent should have been a nephew of the person they had in the list of descent from CHARLEMAGNE. This evidence added one more generation to the line. The evidence that I have are court records regarding a real estate dispute. Since He was upset about the conversation, I thought it best to give him a little space until he was ready to listen to my evidence. Unfortunately, he passed away before we had a chance to renew our discussions.
Where did Petronila first appear?
I'm new to the family of Petronila's descendants. A very distant cousin of mine posted a family tree on Ancestry with 33,000 people including my 8th great grandparents, Joseph de Contreras and Cecilia de Renteria. My cousin doesn't list her sources on Ancestry so I have been slowly researching and documenting each person. Today, I made the mistake of picking up Chipman's book which says my 13th GGM Petronila de Sotelo doesn't exist. Ancestry.com and Family Search seem to back him up.
All the records people cite are not of Petronila. I want to prove she existed. Does anyone know where and when her name first appeared?
What do you know about Martin de Gabay Navarro? My first question is, "Is his name Navarro de Gabay or de Gabay de Navarro? (Martin Navarro from Gabay or Martin de Gabay from Navarre?). I'm starting to realize that some of these names are places.
Can someone tell me what PARES and SHARR are? I want more places to dig. I'm stubborn and I just finished an MS in Business - not a related field but I am trained to research and I don't know what to do with my extra time.
If Petronila is not Leonor Valderrama's descendant, I have also lost Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.
I'm now regretting not going into that giant LDS temple in my hometown of LA. I was under the incorrect impression that they only had US records and maybe some European records. Do they have anything that is not on FamilySearch or My Heritage?
Any help welcome...
Thanks,
Rachel Juarez Vargas
Where did Petronila first appear?
Rachel,
That is the question we have all been asking … I believe that there is at least one Informaciones Matrimoniales that state that Petronila was Moctezuma’s granddaughter … at least that is what memory serves. The million dollar question is who her parents were. Supposedly, Guillermo Tovar de Teresa had located proof of her parentage and supporting the theory that she was daughter of Diego Sotelo; unfortunately, he died before he was able to publish his findings. However, he did share his information with Mariano González-Leal so there is hope to getting our questions answered.
As fo Martin … I believe he was Martin de Gabay, el Navarro. However, he has been referred to as Martin Navarro as well.
If you look back in the archives on Nuestros Ranchos, you will see that this topic is pretty well covered.
-Angelina-
On Dec 29, 2019, at 1:49 AM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> I'm new to the family of Petronila's descendants. A very distant cousin of
> mine posted a family tree on Ancestry with 33,000 people including my 8th
> great grandparents, Joseph de Contreras and Cecilia de Renteria. My cousin
> doesn't list her sources on Ancestry so I have been slowly researching and
> documenting each person. Today, I made the mistake of picking up Chipman's
> book which says my 13th GGM Petronila de Sotelo doesn't exist. Ancestry.com
> and Family Search seem to back him up. All the records people cite are not of
> Petronila. I want to prove she existed. What do you know about Martin de
> Gabay Navarro? My first question is, "Is his name Navarro de Gabay or de
> Gabay de Navarro? (Martin Navarro from Gabay or Martin de Gabay from
> Navarre?). I'm starting to realize that some of these names are places. Can
> someone tell me what PARES and SHARR are? I want more places to dig. I'm
> stubborn and I just finished an MS in Business - not a related field but I am
> trained to research and I don't know what to do with my extra time. If
> Petronila is not Leonor Valderrama's descendant, I have also lost
> Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de
> Sotelo. I'm now regretting not going into that giant LDS temple in my
> hometown of LA. I was under the incorrect impression that they only had US
> records and maybe some European records. Do they have anything that is not on
> FamilySearch or My Heritage? Any help welcome... Thanks, Rachel Juarez Vargas
>
Where did Petronila first appear?
I've spent my morning/early afternoon researching this topic. I read the portion of Margo Tamez' dissertation on Indigenous Women in regard to Petronila. She lists a marriage record but it is not on Family Search. Is there another LDS repository that I am unaware of?
PETRONILA DE MOCTEZUMA, b. Aguascalientes, Abt. 1550. Married to Martin Navarro.
Listed with parents: Francisca GABAY Born Abt. 1577, marriage Abt. 1594 Mexico, DF
LDS marriage film Batch # F868769, Sheet 031, Source 1396289.
If Lope Ruiz de Esparza was correct in calling her "Moctezuma's grand daughter" then she is not the daughter of Leonor and Diego. She cannot be Valderrama's daughter because he died in 1537 and Petronila was born around 1552.
Where did Petronila first appear?
She would have to be a g-grand daughter of Moctezuma. I don’t remember the exact verbage but I do know the there has been confusion with all the Leonor’s in this line. As for other records … the Informaciones Matrimoniales are usually not in the database. Those you have to look at the actual film which is probably available on-line.
You have peaked my interest. I will take a look at the dissertation you mentioned and as well as the LDS record so I can see what you see. Also, I will see if I have links to any documents that mention them.
-Angelina-
> On Dec 29, 2019, at 7:32 PM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> I've spent my morning/early afternoon researching this topic. I read the
> portion of Margo Tamez' dissertation on Indigenous Women in regard to
> Petronila. She lists a marriage record but it is not on Family Search. Is
> there another LDS repository that I am unaware of? PETRONILA DE MOCTEZUMA, b.
> Aguascalientes, Abt. 1550. Married to Martin Navarro. Listed with parents:
> Francisca GABAY Born Abt. 1577, marriage Abt. 1594 Mexico, DF LDS marriage
> film Batch # F868769, Sheet 031, Source 1396289. If Lope Ruiz de Esparza was
> correct in calling her "Moctezuma's grand daughter" then she is not the
> daughter of Leonor and Diego. She cannot be Valderrama's daughter because he
> died in 1537 and Petronila was born around 1552.
>
Where did Petronila first appear?
Here is a link to her dissertation. https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/753899983.html?FMT=AI
Petronila is on Page 583 - Appendix H.
Where did Petronila first
thank you. interesting read.
> On Dec 30, 2019, at 8:23 PM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> Here is a link to her dissertation.
> https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/753899983.html?FMT=AI Petronila is on Page
> 583 - Appendix H.
>
Where did Petronila first appear?
Hello Rachel, Batch # F868769, Sheet 031, Source 1396289 would have been created by Jaime Holcombe Isunza, q.e.p.d., and are not available online. See http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/14203#comment-29226 and https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/319732?availability=Family%…
I have copies of some of his Family Group Sheets. They have names of the esposo, esposa, sometimes the names of the parents of the esposo and esposa, the names of the children of the esposo and esposa, and their children and the spouse of the children and the dates of each of them as well as the source information. Unfortunately the source information is the film number in Mexico and not the LDS film number but if there is a number it means there is a microfilm with information about one or more of the family members. By now we would have copies of all of the information on the sheets since they are all based on the same microfilms that have been digitized and placed online.
I uploaded a copy of the FGS sheet of Tomás de Villalobos cc Catarina Macias Valadez to Google drive at https://bit.ly/2QmjujL so you can see what the FGS sheets look like.
I also uploaded, to the same folder, a Microsoft document with letters by Jaime Holcombe Isunza to Mary Lou Montagna that she was willing to share with us some years ago. Jaime Holcombe mentions records that include references to Petronila de Moctezuma.
SHARR is at https://shhar.org/ and stands for Society of Hispanic Historical and Ancestral Research
It seems that the earliest document that anyone has found and shared that mentions Petronila de Moctezuma was in 1702 in the dispensa of Tomasa de la Rosa y Ulloa. There is a link to it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Moctezuma-1 I uploaded a full transcription of it to the Google drive. It mentions her as hija de Pedro de Ulloa Marquez nieta de María Ruiz de Esparza bisnieta de Francisca Gabai y tercera nieta de los dichos Martin Navarro y Doña Petronila Montesuma.
Supposedly Martín Navarro Gabay received a grant for land between Mexticacán and Acasico in 1570. That is another document that would be a great find.
I have a copy of Retoños de España en La Nueva Galicia Tomo VII (2011) by Mariano González Leal which has a section on Moctezuma which mentions doña Petronila Moctezuma as a wife of Martín de Gabay, conocido como el Navarro, and as a daughter of doña Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma and of Diego de Arias Sotelo and as the granddaughter of Cristóbal de Valderrama and of Leonor de Moctezuma and as the great-granddaughter of Moctezuma II. This section is all based on the research by don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa, q.e.p.d.. This document that don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa had found is the one that all of us need to put to rest the speculation of her ancestry.
PARES (Portal de Archivos Españoles) is at http://pares.mcu.es/ and there are a huge number of digitized records from Mexico on the site. You can do a simple search or if you already have the section that the record is found in and the signatura then you can do an advanced search.
There is descendant tree of Moctezuma created about 1574 that mentions doña Leonor casada con Xpoval de Valderrama and that they had Leonor de Valderrama who married Diego Arias Sotelo and they had a son named don Fernando Sotelo who would have been the brother of Petronila de Moctezuma if the hypothesis of her ancestry is correct. The tree stated that there are other children of Leonor de Valderrama and Diego Arias Sotelo.
To see the tree go to http://pares.mcu.es/ then to Busqueda Avanzada then to FILTRO POR SIGNATURA then paste the following PATRONATO,245,R.5 then click Buscar.
Since we are talking about potentially, or likely, being descendants of Diego de Arias Sotelo I should point out that some sites mention his death as July 7, 1566 when in reality that is the date he and his brother were ordered to appear in Mexico City. Título de la unidad: "Proceso contra Diego Arias de Sotelo:rebelión Nueva España" Archivo: Archivo General de Indias Signatura: PATRONATO,217,R.3 Fecha Creación: 1566
Diego de Arias Sotelo was still alive in 1573, and maybe even in 1587, according to documents found at PARES.
Descent from CHARLEMAGNE?
Dear Rachael Juarez Vargas,
I am very curious about your statement:
“Have also lost Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.”
How are Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.descendants of CHARLEMAGNE?
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Descent from Charlemagne
Dear Rachael
I too am curious. A few years ago I was trying to untangle the Sotelo lines in Spain, Mexico and South America...very intersting family but I did not get further back (with reasonable certainty) than Diego Sotelo's parents.
Regards
Denise Fastrup
De Sotelo/Valderrama
I got a family tree from a distant cousin. I am still trying to sort the truth from fiction. Ironically, I had ironed out the link to Moctezuma that I thought was iffy when I found out Petronilla was iffy.
I get to royalto via Pedro de Sotelo, the alleged father of both Antonio de Sotelo (Diego's father) and Christobal Valderrama. I have to look at my records but I believe I proved Antonio is the son of Pedro but I don't know why I have Cristobal as the son of Pedro de Sotelo and Ines Cisneros. Pedro de Sotelo goes to a King of Portugal, once I got there I just used history sites.
I found a lot of info here: https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/ which ancestry.com uses as a source. However, now that I have more experience in online genealogical research, I am not sure what type of site it is and if its reliable. I'm not sure if it's a European Records repository similar to Family Search or a crowd sourced tree like WikiTree.
I just found this by googling but who put it up there and is it sourced:
http://ojocaliente.nfshost.com/getperson.php?personID=I2475&tree=1A
I keep running into out of print books written in Mexico and Spain as sources for both my famous and my unfamous ancestors. My Spanish is atrocious but I am willing to give it a try if I can find the book (or ship them to Mexico so my aunt or cousin can read it).
I'll keep looking and posting. I may start actually using Roots Magic vs. Ancestry.com as my source of truth so I can download everything.
Cheers!
Rachel
Sotelo, Valderrama, online genealogical research
Hi Rachel
It's wonderful to see your enthusiasm! There will be brick walls, but the only thing to do it move on to another branch for a while where you can make progress. I find that if I take a break from one line, and pick it up later, I discover new info or see something I overlooked.
My best advice is to rely on original documents - church or civil records of birth, marriage, death, infomacion matrimoniales, etc. - I use FamilySearch and sometimes ancestry as a way in. Other - secondary - sources can point you in the right direction, give you a good lead, but I would not base my family tree on these (published article and books by historians who provide their sources are another matter though). I save links, source citations, and screenshots in google docs, and print out now and then. This is especially important when a film is not indexed and has to be reviewed image by image. The work is very painstaking, but also rewarding when you make a discovery that pushes a line back one more generation, or you find out something you did not expect.
Regarding Antonio de Sotelo, father of Diego Arias de Sotelo, the consensus from the earlier posts is that no document has been found that shows how he is related to the other Sotelos of Zamora. All we know for sure are the names of his brothers and parents, as they are mentioned in the record of the "conspiracion" trial of Martin Cortez and his co-defendants and in the document Confirmacion de Oficio where Diego Arias Sotelo is confirmed for the office of regidor (parents named). It would be great to see what you have on this issue.
You mention Christobal de Valderrama - I am wondering if you mean the son of Diego Arias de Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama?
Good Luck with your research!
Regards
Denise
Sotelo, Valderrama, Saavedra, Saenz de Vituarre, etc.
Hi Denise,
The furthest I can prove with records at the moment is the line from my mom to Lope Ruiz de Ezparza el menor and his wife Ana Francisca de Gabay or Navarro or whatever her father's name was. I have seen records or books naming Lope's parents but I don't have those records saved to Ancestry.com.
Cristobal de Valderrama was Mariana Leonor Moctezuma's second husband, father of Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma and father in law of Diego Arias de Sotelo. I have him as "de Valderrama" which is how I have seen him listed. I thought it was because he was from Valderrama, Burgos, Casile & Leon, Spain. It's near the border between Castile and Basque country. I've only seen his name in books which I didn't screenshot.
I am going to start doing that now. I've been reading other trees on Ancestry. A lot of them have notes and some have photos of records. I think a lot of people may keep their sources offline. I can't imagine knowing what someone did for a living without having a record.
Luisa Ortiz de Saavedra is my 13th Great Grandmother. Her father is listed as Diego Hortiz Saavedra on her marriage record. Her mother is listed as Catalina Munoz - however, the only record I can find for Diego - is a marriage to Catalina Gomez. I can see where it is possible for Catalina Munoz and Catalina Gomez to be the same person but I would need to see the records. I literally just discovered PARES and now I have to learn how to use it. I have records going from my mom to Luisa and Diego if you count the marriage certificate.
The reason the Saavedras caught my attention is that the name is unusual.
I'm doing all this research on my mom's distant ancestors because my father's side is a total dead end. The family is from Guanajuato and Galicia, Spain (allegedly) but I can't find anyone before 1800. The male line (allegedly) came to Guanajuato in 1820 but my great uncle who wrote the family history wasn't sure if they came directly from Galicia or to Cuba in the 1500s and Mexico in the 1800s.So here I am. I'm stubborn and I just got out of grad school. If something exists I will find it.
I'd do better if the names made sense. Is Don Diego Arias de Sotelo, Lord/Sir Diego Arias from Sotelo or is he Lord/Sir Diego Arias-Sotelo?
Cristobal Sotelo Valderrama
In case any of you don’t have this, here’s the 27 Aug 1594 IM of Cristobal Sotelo Valderrama and Juana de Heredia Patiño, hija de Baltasar de Vargas cc Francisca de Heredia. Apparently, Cristobal’s sister was “maliciously” opposed to this union. I don’t know if the marriage ever happened.
DIEGO ORTIZ DE SAAVEDRA
Rachel - according to the info that his son gave when taking his orders, the elder Diego Ortiz de Saavedra was from Almendralejo, Badajoz, Extremadura. His parents’ names aren’t given, but they were also residents of Almendralejo, Valladolid isn’t mentioned. Catalina Muñoz was daughter of Francisco Muñoz and Luisa de Nava, of Lagos.
Otherwise, Diego Ortiz was confirmed as alguacil mayor (high sheriff) of Lagos, Aguascalientes and Teocaltiche on 26 Feb 1611, as per PARES. That document doesn’t give any more info, other than his name is written Diego Ortiz de Saavedra y Paradas.
That’s interesting, what that book says about Beatriz mulata, the mother of the younger Diego Ortiz’s child, being accused of poisoning him. Her proceso criminal had her accused of poisoning this one’s nephew, who was also named Diego Ortiz. To call her “shameless” is ironic, seeing how Licenciado Diego Ortiz was the commissary of the Santo Oficio, whose job was to prosecute priests for that type of behavior (!!!). I doubt Beatriz had much say in the matter, having been born a slave. Age old story: blame the victim. She had a very compelling story, maybe I should write something about her.
I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Christobal Sotelo Valderrama
Hi Manny
This is wonderful! Thanks for posting the link, I can see it states both Christobal's parents are deceased. Looking forward to trying the read why his sister was opposed to the marriage!
THe marriage did go through, and when Christobal died, Juana inherited his share of Ecatepec and then sued to get half of Christobal's sister's share of Ecatepec. Had she not done that, all of sister Ana's share would have gone to Fernando Sotelo de Moctezuma. (The three siblings had each inherited a third). This is described in more detail in Moctezuma's Children by Donald E. Chipman, p. 81.
Regards
Denise
Christobal Sotelo Valderrama
Denise - I’m not sure if it gives the reason why Ana Sotelo didn’t want her brother to marry - the document isn’t in very good condition and is a difficult read, but there doesn’t appear to be any details.
Rachel - I forgot to leave the link to Diego Ortiz de Saavedra el Mozo’s ordenes.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DV99-CS?i=93&wc=SSKC-L…
Here’s something of interest to anyone else who has Muñoz de Nava in their lines: while reviewing Diego Ortiz de Saavedra’s ordenes, I saw something I hadn’t noticed before: one of the testigos was Capitan Francisco Tavera, age 70+ (img100R). He says that he remembers when Diego Ortiz was baptized (on 12 Aug 1601), “because the previous year, this witness married Luisa de Nava, the grandmother of aforementioned Diego Ortiz.” That’s news to me - I’ve never seen any mention of this marriage before! That tells us that Francisco Muñoz died before 1600, when Luisa de Nava married Francisco Tavera. As to the identity of this Capitan Francisco Tavera, we should leave that for another thread.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
de Saavedra, de Nava, de Ando Altamirano & Gomez de Portugal
I found a document in Somos Primos when I was looking up the de Anda-Altamiranos (another of my Lagos lines) which also read "Don Diego Ortiz de Saavedra, alguacil mayor y también de los primeros pobladores de Lagos, cuando él muere, su esposa, Doña Catalina Muñoz de Jerez." vs Catalina Munoz de Nava. I also show a Cathalina Lopez de Nava as the wife of Juan Gomez de Portugal. My sources are starting to contradict themselves!
The document is almost to the bottom of the page it's called La Hacienda de San Nicola de Frias by Guillermo Padilla Origel
http://www.somosprimos.com/sp2002/spnov02.htm#MEXICO
Now I'm off to attempt to read "Vecinos de casa poblada: Los Gómez de Portugal de Santa María de los Lagos, 1563-1810" by Dra. Lina Mercedes Cruz Lira of the University of Guadalajara. Hmmm... I may want to see if I can get in during her office hours when I'm down there. I can speak Spanish it's reading it that is hard for me. Below is a link if anyone is intersted.
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=RwunDwAAQBAJ&rdid=book-R…
Contradictions
Dear Rachel,
If you have done lots of research you will find that sometimes sources contradict each other. You then need More research and mental gymnastics to figure our the possible reasons for the contradictions and the true ancestry. There is another contradiction in the ancestry of the Gómez de Portugal ancestry. One ancestry shows Diego Gómez de Portugal to be a great-grandson of a king of Portugal, while another ancestry shows a different great grandfather
Good Luck in your research,
Rick
Contradictions
Hi Rachel,
After reading through the Guillermo Padilla Origel piece that you cited, I think I can see the source of some of the contradictions. Except for maybe the land titles, almost everything he says about the Ortiz de Saavedra’s is incorrect. I’ve read other articles by Padilla Origel in the past, and he seems to get people with the same names mixed up. It makes me wonder if he ever backed up his work with documentation, or did any cross referencing? Catalina Muñoz was not a Muñoz de Jerez: as established in the orders of her son, Diego Ortiz “el Mozo,” she was daughter of Francisco Muñoz and Luisa de Nava. The Muñoz de Jerez of Lagos descend from Luisa de Nava’s sister, Catalina Lopez, who was married to Rodrigo Muñoz de Jerez. And Diego Ortiz and Catalina Muñoz did have a daughter named Maria Ortiz de Saavedra, but she was married to Fernando de Costilla y Espinosa, and not to Alonso Sanchez Bañales and Mateo de Villanueva. The one who married them was her cousin, Maria Ortiz de Parada, daughter of Lazaro Ortiz de Parada and Catalina de Ulloa. I have all of this sourced & documented, and it’ll probably correspond with other trees you see out there.
I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Beatriz
Hi Manny,
I bought "Colonial Spanish America: A Documentary History" by Taylor and Mills because I saw screenshot of it somewhere in regard to Diego Ortiz de Saavedra. I had not idea there was more than one Diego Ortiz de Saavedra. As I read it, my 12th GGPs Luisa Ortiz de Saavedra and Juan Saez de Viduarre were upset because Diego, Jr. left Beatriz his property. Juan was the magistrate. Beatriz was the mistress of several notable local men in Lagos and she was a bitch to Diego Jr.'s slaves, regardless much to my GGPs chagrin she was aquitted. Beatriz had been freed for a while at this point.
The reason I thought Diego Sr. came from Valladolid is because I saw something stating that Luisa was born there but that doesn't mean he was from there. The Parada name comes from Maria Ortiz de Saavedra's children. She was Luisa's younger sister. She married Sebastian Parada. Since I'm currently researching my direct line, I don't know much about them but I will get to them at somepoint.
Thanks,
Rachel
Sotelo, Valderrama, Saavedra, Saenz de Vituarre, etc.
Hi Rachel
I think it's best to use the honorific "Don".
Also, there was more than one Christobal de Valderrama, see Manny's post in this thread. :)
Regards
Denise
Sotelos and Valderramas
That's Cristobal Sotelo Valderamma, Cristobal de Valderamma's grandson. I don't understand how the honorific "Don" would help distinguish them, aren't they both "Dons"? It *does* explain the source that I saw that thought Cristobal, Sr. was a Sotelo.
Ana was a nun, perhaps Juana was of a similar disposition to Beatriz but without the extenuating circumstances.
Ana and Cristobal, Jr. (and Fernando) bring us back to Petronila Moctezuma, mother in law of Lope Ruiz de Esparza and "grand daughter of Moctezuma". Cristobal, Jr., Ana and Fernando were Moctezuma's great-grandchildren and Petronila's sibling based on the most common place she is placed in the genealogies.
Where did Petronila first appear?
Happy New Year,
Rachel,
I was very surprised to hear about Conquistador Cristóbal Valderrama’s ancestry as I don’t even know who his parents are. The information that I have is that:
He was accused of being a practicing Jew.
He was from “Valderrama, partido de la Sierra en Tobalina, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain”,
He was born in 1490/1495 in Barcelona, provincia da Cataluña, Spain,
He married Mariana “Leonor” Moctezuma in 1931 as her second husband,
He is mentioned in the early history of Michoacan where he was given the encomienda of Tarimbaro in 1526. His wife Mariana/ Leonor already owned the encomienda of Ecatepac prior to their marriage.
He passed away in Ciudad Mexico, D.F., Mexico in November of 1537.
I don’t have any records at all indicating leads as to who his parents are, or any mention of a descent from Charlemagne. I would appreciate any information on Cristóbal Valderrama’s ancestry.
=====/====================/==========================================
First known evidence of Leonor Moctezuma /Sotelo /Petronila connection to Moctezuma:
The first known appearance of evidence is a family chart that appears in 1574.
The first document that I read is dated 1595 and the scribe is quoting Lope Ruiz De Esparza.
======================================================================
Denise,
I also found the Sotelo family to be very interesting. The accusations against this family in “inquisicion” records shows us how ugly the inquisition really was. This family’s christian faith was truly put to the test.
The star that served as a beacon for Christian faith is a member of the Sotelo family. In comparison, Sor Juana Ines De la Cruz stands out as a beacon for women, and men, for her Intelligence, her stand on women’s rights, and her poems. Juana Ines de la Cruz’s christian faith was admirable, but the beacon for Her religious faith was a member of the Sotelo family as she stood up and fought the inquistion. Her story is the highlight in my book on the Sotelo family.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Source: Mygenes2000
The Sotelos
Hi Rick
I have been trying to remember the name of the Sotelo lady who was Lutheran in the 16th century, I think it was Marina de Saavedra, married to Pedro Cisneros de Sotelo.
Very interesting story about her, written by Doris Moreno Martinez:
https://books.google.dk/books?id=9QS4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT347&dq=sotelo+marina…
Devout Laywomen in the Early Modern World
editado por Alison Weber (Chapter 10 is about Marina de Saavedra)
There are several Sotelos mentioned here, some of which are the same people mentioned in the comments in this thread here in NR:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21997
With regard to the parentage of Diego ARias de Sotelo, the problem has been to document that his father was the Sotelo who accompanied Hernan Cortes. To my knowledge, we do not have a source on that. It would have been great if Diego Sotelos Confirmation de Oficio of 1559 had mentioned it specifically...
Another interesting Sotelo: Pedro Arias Davila aka Pedrarias, mentioned in a letter from Diego Arias Sotelo to his son, who identifies him as Pedrarias de Sotelo -
see page 5 of the comments on this thread: http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21906?page=4
There is a chapter on him in the book Rivers of Gold by Hugh Thomas. Unfortunately I have not been able to figure out how he is related to Diego...
Regards
Denise
Sotelo Saint or heretic?
Dear Denise,
Even though she was convicted for practicing Lutheranism, it appears that she was innocent in the sense that she believed that she was deepening her faith in Christianity, and did not see her self as practicing anything other than the Catholic religion. Her participation in prayer and scripture study groups seemed to her to be a deepening of her Catholic faith. She was a woman full of love for her neighbors and should have been considered a saint instead of a heretic. Her biggest mistake it seems was taking to heart the teachings of Erasmus. I only call it a mistake because of the persecution that she suffered because of it. She wasn’t the only Sotelo family member that was accused of heresy. What makes her stand out is her “innocence” just jumps out to the reader when you read about her life.
There was much controversy over the writings of Erasmus as he preached that the spread of Classical knowledge encouraged a better morality and greater understanding between people. Erasmus lectured and collaborated with Thomas More and other many brilliant fellow theologians of his time.
Erasmus never officially left the Catholic Church. Erasmus believed that what mattered most was a believer's direct relationship with God. After he passed away, the inquisition targeted people that studied his writings and charged them with heresy, Early in Erasmus’s life, he preached that Luther and others had gone too far and that they should seek reform within the church through proper channels instead of rebelling. Towards the end of Erasmus’s life he stopped preaching against the Protestants Radicalism and seemed to become disenchanted with the lack of progress of Catholic reforms. After Erasmus passed away, his name became associated with calls for reform so those that didn’t want any change claimed that only heretics read his writings. By the time of his death, most of the brilliant thinkers that he had collaborated had either passed away, become a Protestant, or stayed quiet in order to not have to deal with the inquisition.
For most of Erasmus’s life he was criticized by reformers for having to much patience with the Catholic Church and not pressing for immediate change. It is ironic that once he passed away that anyone promoting his ideas was placed under suspicion for heresy by the inquisition.
As you can readily tell, I look up to this Sotelo family member who I consider a Saint.
Wishing you a happy and fruitful new year,
Rick A. Ricci
Sotelo Saint or Heretic?
Hi Rick
Thanks for the info on Marina de Saavedra, she was truly a courageous person during a time when a challenge to the Catholic church's dogma (or actions the church perceived as a challenge) could get you burned as a heretic - this was in fact the fate of her nephew Pedro de Sotelo. She herself was imprisoned for life at the order of the Inquisition. The record of her trial reveals that she both denied heresy and admitted to having believed, for a period of time, some of the heretical (Lutheran) doctrine. What she ultimately believed in her heart we will never know - she had a husband, two daughters and many sons who lives would be affected if she did not reconcile with the church. (This is from the text I mentioned in my previous post)... And yes, Erasmus is also a fascination figure that I know all too little about - added to my list of persons to read up on :)
As for Diego Arias Sotelo, we know for a fact that his brother was Baltasar Sotelo who was also implicated, found guilty, and beheaded for his part in the "conspiración de Martin Cortes." The record of the trial includes information about where their family is from - Zamora - and this is the same place where the Cisneros de Sotelo are based. So, Diego is somehow linked to Pedro Sotelo and the other Sotelos mention in the text on Marina de Saavedra, but as I have mentioned, I was never able to establish exactly how. HOPEFULLY someday someone will make it a master's thesis or something....
Wishing you a Happy New Year and continuing success in your geneaology research!
Regards
Denise
Marina de Saavedra
Hi Denise,
Marina de Saavedra was the wife of Pablo Cisneros Sotelo. Pablo is a brother of Conquistador Antonio Sotelo Cisneros. The Sotelo family that went to South America used Cisneros as the first surname Marina has her name written many different ways in the inquisition records: Sayabedra, Saavedra, Sallebedra are some of the surnames she used. Her first name has been given as Marina and Ana.
Pablo Cisneros Sotelo and Antonio de Sotelo y Cisneros are sons of don Pedro de Sotelo and doña Inés de Cisneros. Pablo and Antonio have two other brothers named Gregorio and Juan. Pedro’s father is Lope Sotelo. Pedro Sotelo has at least two brothers named Francisco and Alonso.
Even though Marina Saavedra was sentenced to life in prison on 21/May/1559, by 1567 she had already been allowed to return to her home.
One of the officials of the inquisition is a family member of the Sotelo family. I don’t know the exact relationship. His name is Inquisitor General Diego de Deza
I too have found it interesting that in a letter from Diego Arias Sotelo to his son, Diego identifies Pedro Arias De Avila as Pedrarias de Sotelo ( aka Pedro Arias Davila aka Pedrarias, )
Pedro Arias de Avila’s wife, mother and grandmother come from Jewish families that were recent converts to Catholicism under the forced conversions. His grandmother, Elvira Gonzalez, converted in 1411. His mother is a member of the Jewish Cota and Ortiz families from Toledo. His wife is a member of the Conversó Fernandez Bobadilla family These families were considered “cryptojews” even though some family members entered priesthood.
I have not been able to find the relationship between Pedro Arias Davila (Pedrarias de Sotelo) and Diego Arias Sotelo. Diego Arias Sotelo was not a recent convert, yet the family’s familiarity with studying scriptures leads to the conjecture that they had conversó ancestors. Studying scripture was part of common Jewish life and not common for Catholics unless they belonged to a religious order
Wishing you the best,
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000
Diego Arias Sotelo and family
Hi Rick and NR members intersted in the Sotelo family
Very interesting with all those Sotelos, Rick! I checked in PARES and there are many entries with these names (and other Sotelos) in the 1500s.
I also did a search here in NR because several of us posted on Diego Arias Sotelo and his descendants some years ago - there is a lot from 2014. It was fun re-reading the old posts. It looks like we overlooked one interesting doc in PARES - sorry, the link doesn't work, so the path to the doc is copy-pasted here:
RESUMEN:
Título de la unidad: "Real cédula concediendo a Diego Arias Sotelo, vecino y regidor de México el término de un año para que la ausencia de Nueva España de Hernando Sotelo Moctezuma, su hijo y de Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma, no perjudique su derecho a la sucesión de los indios de dicha tierra si falleciese en dicho plazo."
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: MEXICO,1090,L.7,F.174V-175V
Soporte: contiene imágenes digitalizadas
indicador de lista abierta ÁREA DE IDENTIFICACIÓN
Código de Referencia:
ES.41091.AGI/23.10.1105//MEXICO,1090,L.7,F.174V-175V
Titulo Nombre atribuido:
Real cédula concediendo a Diego Arias Sotelo, vecino y regidor de México el término de un año para que la ausencia de Nueva España de Hernando Sotelo Moctezuma, su hijo y de Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma, no perjudique su derecho a la sucesión de los indios de dicha tierra si falleciese en dicho plazo.
Fecha Creación:
1573-5-27 Madrid
Nivel de Descripción:
Unidad Documental Simple
indicador de lista abierta ÁREA DE CONTEXTO
Nombre de/l (los) productor/es:
Consejo de Indias (España)
My Spanish is not good enough to understand everything, but I have a feeling you (Rick) and others would be able to read it without much problem, the handwriting is reasonably legible. Its easy to read "nieta de motecuma" for example, right after the name dona Leonor Valderrama Motecuma (...) muger.
So, if anyone has time to take a look at it...
Regards
Denise
Document Leonor nieta de Moctezuma
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/7310811
Leonor
Thank you. I too cannot easily read the early writings but can make out the request Vro. (Vruestro +Nuestro Hijo) and other words but it is clear Leonor nieta de Moctesuma. Once again thanks for the hard copy of evidence.
Leonor
What date is on this document?
________________________________ on behalf of sarod77@hotmail.com
From: Research
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 10:35 AM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Leonor
Thank you. I too cannot easily read the early writings but can make out the
request Vro. (Vruestro +Nuestro Hijo) and other words but it is clear Leonor
nieta de Moctesuma. Once again thanks for the hard copy of evidence.
Document Leornor nieta de Moctezuma
Hi SImona
Thanks for the link - it works!
Regards
Denise
Saavedra
Hi Rick and Denise,
Can you fill me in on the Saavedras? I found a couple of them in the records on Ancestry.com. Luisa Ortiz de Saavedra wife of Juan Saez De Vidaurri in 1620. Her parents are listed as Diego Hortiz Saavedra and Carolina Muñoz. These Saavedras are from Valladolid Spain. Juan Saenz is from Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, Mexico, where generations of my ancestors seem to have lived for generations. Diego is a dead end because there are too many people with similar names. A younger Diego Ortiz was a priest in Lagos who had a child with a "shameless mulatta" named Beatriz who later poisoned him as per "Colonial Spanish America: A Documentary History edited by Kenneth Mills, William B. Taylor"
I've ordered a copy from Amazon becuase it appears to cover Lagos.
Thanks!
Rachel
Saavedra
Hi Rachel
I am afraid I don't have any other info on the Saavedras than what I already have posted. I have not seen any Saavendras on my family tree (YET!). Sorry I cannot give more help at this point. But if I come across any Saavedras in the very early records (1500s and 1600s) I will reply to your post here.
Regards
Denise
Valderama
He is supposed to be a De Sotelo (brother of Antonio, uncle of Diego) but I have to look at my notes to see where I got that information. I think it was a screenshot of one of those out of print books that drive me insane. I have a giant tree from a distant cousin that I have been sourcing for 4 years! The darn thing is huge and unsourced.
I'll get back to you when I find it.
Moctezuma II descendientes
Hi Rick,
On 8 Nov 2019 in this thread, at the end of the 2nd paragraph, you wrote:
“Other records show Petronila Moctezuma as madrina of children of the Sotelo Valderrama Moctezuma family. “
What are those records, and are they available online?
Thanks, and I hope you’re well!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Petronila de Moctezuma
Is there still debate about whether or not Petronila de Moctezuma was a direct line descendant of Moctezuma, and who her parents were?
I have read Margo Tamez's Ph.D disseration about Petronila's lineage and the debate about who her parents were. I also read in Retonos de Espana en la Nueva Galicia, volume 7, page 214, author Mauriano Gonzalez- Leal, that Petronila is a child of Leonor de Valderamma y Moctezuma and Diego Arias de Sotelo.
Is there now general consensus about her parents? Have any documents been identified that support the theory about her parents?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Petronila de Moctezuma
I personally read a document written in 1595 that quotes Lope Ruiz De Esparza as stating that he arrived two years earlier, and that since he had arrived, he had married Francisca Gabai. He also stated that his mother in law was a granddaughter of Moctezuma. He misspoke as he should have said great granddaughter
Rick A. Ricci
Petronila de Moctezuma
As a descendant of Moctezuma, Leonor de Valderrama inherited the encomendera of Tarimbaro and Ecatepec. She is thought to have died around 1562. When her husband was exiled to Spain in 1568, managing the encomendera fell to her oldest son, Fernando. In his book "Moctezuma's Children: Aztec Royalty under Spanish Rule, 1520-1700", author Donald E. Chipman writes that Fernando's inheritance was contested by his brother, Cristobal. In 1588, after a twenty year legal battle, the Audiencia of new Spain ruled in favor of Fernando. However, Cristobal appealed the decision. In 1593, Fernando was forced to divided the estates into three equal shares with one share going to Fernando, one share going to Cristobal, and one share going to their sister, Ana. As a young maiden, Ana made the decision to dedicate her life to her faith and became a nun serving in the convent of Santa Clara in Mexico City. She renounced her share in favor of her brothers.
I am assuming that Mr.Chipman thoroughly reviewed available documentation regarding the lawsuit when he researched the subject. Given that there is no mention of a second sister, this should cast doubt regarding the assertion that Petronila is a daughter of Leonor Valderrama. Even so, in her doctorate dissertation Dr. Margo Tamez vigorously defends her theory regarding Petronila's relationship to Moctezuma.
It should be noted that if Petronila was the daughter of Diego Arias and Leonor de Valderrama, she should have been entitled to a portion of the settlement that was awarded as a result of Cristobal's lawsuit. I believe it is unlikely Petronila's husband would have allowed the prospect of receiving a share of the settlement to pass without taking some action. He would have documented her lineage and claimed a share. After all, he had 25 years to pull this together and the settlement would have been substantial.
At least that's my take on the controversy.
Petronila de Moctezuma
Some wills name all the children, while giving the inheritance to only some of the children. On many occasions I have come across wills that don’t identify all the children, naming only those that are chosen to inherit. Not only have I seen this in my research, I have also experienced this personally in my own family. Some times children are not named in wills. Sometimes the parents only left the inheritance only to the eldest of their children. I have a family member that wrote his will that only gave an inheritance to the youngest half of his children. I had a great uncle that excluded a child from his will because he secretly provided that child with a sizable chunk of change before he passed away. He wanted to make sure that there weren’t bad feelings as to who got what after he passed away. Another family member of mine left all of her belongings to two of her children and did not name her other two children in her will. I have at least three ancestors that were not named in their father’s will as they were born after the wills had been written, two of them after their father passed away. Sor Juan Ynes De la Cruz’s paternal uncle is not named in his father’s will as he was born after his father passed away.
Chapman named more than three children, at least two digits, and then stated that there were at least five others that remained unnamed by him. (I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I can check since I do own his book.)
I myself have been told repeatedly that I am not even named in my father’s will, forget about me inheriting anything. I am a legitimate son. So because someone is not named doesn’t mean that they aren’t a child of that person.
dowry and inheritance
Hi rlm99x
I wondered about this too, (I have Chipmans book) but in colonial Mexico, when a daughter gets married her father gives her a dowry (dota). It would then make sense that she would not get a part of the estate upon her fathers death. I am sure I read this somewhere back in my anthropology grad student days. Anyone else ever hear of this? Because it would explain why Petronila is not a part in her brother's lawsuit. I also wondered if it was convenient for Fernando, as his first order of business after his father was exiled, to get Petronila married off.
Best Regards,
Denise
dowry and inheritance
The wills "testamentos" that I have seen will state if a daughter or son had previously received their inheritance as a dowry or other type of compensation. An example is the the testamento of Beatriz López de Fuenllana(https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDL-69JS-J?i=585).
Saludos,
Austin
Dowry and Inheritance
It is certainly a possibility that if Petronila received a dowry she may have been excluded from receiving any additional benefits from her parents. It appears no one has seen a testament from Leonor Valderrama or Diego de Arias. What is clear is that Diego named Fernando as his heir.
For those that have not looked at the website, Spain has made many of their documents accessible through the Portal de Archivos Espanoles. It includes a royal decree, sought by Diego, dated May 27, 1573. The abstract reads: Real cédula concediendo a Diego Arias Sotelo, vecino y regidor de México el término de un año para que la ausencia de Nueva España de Hernando Sotelo Moctezuma, su hijo y de Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma, no perjudique su derecho a la sucesión de los indios de dicha tierra si falleciese en dicho plazo.
The reference to Hernando is a transcription error. The document clearly says Fernando. The original document can be viewed as well.
If Fernando is the heir apparent, why did Cristobal feel he had a legitimate claim? If Ana is a nun and did not seek any part of the inheritance, why was she included in the settlement? Obviously Cristobal would have received a larger share if she was excluded. If Petronila was not eligible due to her having received a dowry, why was there no mention of that (or her) in the lawsuit (an assumption based on the fact that Donald Chipman seems to be unaware of her existence). Given Cristobal's lawsuit, it seems to me you would want to make it clear that you had a sister that was not eligible.
I can't begin to count the number of Monterrey protocolos I've viewed. With respect to an inheritance, I've seen several lawsuits brought forward by the husband of a wife that received a dowry.
I'm not saying any of the comments made as part of this post are inaccurate. On the contrary, a lot of valid points have been made. Just saying that I would like to see something more concrete before I claim Moctezuma as an ancestor and I hope someone produces a document in the future that ends the controversy.
dowry and inheritance
Hi rlm99x
I too would like to see a document, a primary source that connects Petronila with Diego Arias de Sotelo and Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma. I have the same questions you do. Some years back I spent time searching PARES for documents involving Diego Arias Sotelo and his sons. That was when I found a letter dated 1582 - Carlos Peredo was able to compare a signature on this document with a known signature of Diego Arias de Sotelo and we now can be reasonably sure the one from 1582 is also Diego. Carlos was also able to transcribe parts of it. (So at least we knew he didn't die on a ship of the coast of Oran. He was sentenced to that fate for his role in the conspiracy of the the mid 1560's involving, among others, Hernan Cortez's sons.) Regarding PARES, there are lots of documents with his name, and I only saw the tip of the iceberg. I hope some has the time to do further research there, and can read colonial Spanish. At any rate, his testamento would have to be after the date of that letter - that much we can conclude.
To see this letter from 1582, go to PARES and do a buscar sencillo for "Cristobal Valderrama Sotelo" limited to 1582 and it will pop up. There are 18 images for this application to return to Mexico, and the letter from Diego is one of them.
Regards
Denise
Petronila Sotelo Moctezuma
People question Petronila’s ancestry even though I have repeatedly stated that I have seen proof of her ancestry. I don’t mind people saying that they are not convinced, and won’t be convinced, until they see the document themselves. If I were in their place I too would say “Show me the money”.
And that is why I say I am a very lucky man. I don’t have to rely on what someone else says about seeing proof that Petronila Moctezuma descends from Moctezuma II. Though I can’t find the document that I saw in the Church of Latter Day Saints Library on Santa Monica Blvd in Westwood, I know it exists and that I had it in my hands.
On that day that I took the day off from work to go to the library I was inundated with guilt. I didn’t tell my wife and snuck into the library like a thief. It was the last day before it was to be shut down for “six months” for renovation. The renovation took much, much longer than six months, about two years. I no longer feel guilty for indulging in my hobby and missing work that day because I don’t have to doubt her ancestry!!! And I feel extremely blessed whenever someone doubts my story as it reminds me how lucky I was to see it and have it in my hands.
If It wasn’t me that saw the record I bet I would spend days and weeks instead of hours at the library trying to track it down but I don’t need the record so I spend my time doing other research. The record is in the library though no one can find it.
Rick A. Ricci
Petronila de Moctezuma
Hola prim@s,
You’ve all made great points, and thanks for sharing your thoughts & findings.
I have no doubts that Rick saw that document. We now know it exists, and hopefully, some day, someone will locate it. From Rick’s description, it doesn’t appear to explain the relationship, other than Lope Ruiz de Esparza’s suegra “was a granddaughter of Moctezuma II.” That said, Moctezuma II had numerous wives and concubines, and fathered dozens of children, so the relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be through Diego Arias & Leonor Valderrama (as someone else once pointed out in another NR thread). We all just might be barking up the wrong branch of the tree.
That’s my 2 cents.Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Petronila de Moctezuma
Hi Rick,
That is awesome!!
Would you provide a link to the source, name or more information so I/others can review it as well? Or send me the document file if you have it?
Petronila is my 12x great-grandmother.
Thanks much for any help you may give me,
Terri
Petronila de Moctezuma
Hi Rick,
That is awesome!!
Would you provide a link to the source, name or more information so I/others can review it as well? Or send me the document file if you have it?
Petronila is my 12x great-grandmother.
Thanks much for any help you may give me,
Terri
Moctezuma II descendientes
Hay información sobre esto en geni
https://www.geni.com/people/Petronila-Sotelo-de-Moctezuma/6000000009142…
Moctezuma
See http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/system/files/private/active/0/Moctezuma%…, this is a bit dated, but is what I could verify from historical references.
I have never seen a document that connects Petronila de Moctezuma to this family