First of all I'd like to thank Nuestros Ranchos. If it wasn't for this web site I would never have been in contact with the person that inadvertently "resolved" what had been my 16 year genealogical dead end; Miguel BELTRAN.
I had gone back to a great grandfather Jorge JAIME born sometime in the late 1600s in Aguascalientes "de padres no conocidos." Every document I had pulled on him had said the same about his parents. However, I knew that someone had to know because ever document insisted that he was "Espanol." Which everyone that is familiar with that time period knows that it would not be a claim to be taken lightly.
Miguel BELTRAN discovered Jorge's parents while looking the marriage investigation record of one of Jorge's grandchildren; Tadeo Antonio JAIME. Which states that Jorge's parents were Diego JAIME with Maria SANDOBAL ORIBARRI. And so I went off to investigate Diego JAIME.
Several years ago I had submitted my YDNA to FamilyTreeDNA.com in an effort to get a hint or clue where Jorge JAIME may have been from. Several years of waiting generated nothing substantial. That is until several weeks ago..
A few weeks ago I was informed that I had a "perfect" with three other people. When I logged on to see who the were I was surprised to discover that they were all ROMO, all doing research in this (Nuestros Ranchos) area. The same that I had been researching for over 20 years. After I analyzed the data I came up with a rough time period of us all having a common ancestor in the 1600s. But then begged the question. How did the surname change from ROMO to XAIMES in the 16000s? I had all of my documentation for all of my ancestors going back to the 1600s. Or did I? Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. All but Jorge JAIME born sometime in the 1600s"de padres no conocidos" in Aguascalientes were the ROMOs had already made a name for themselves.
- So who was it?
- Was Maria SANDOBAL OLIBARRI with more than one man?
- Did Maria SANDOBAL OLIBARRI know that the real father was a ROMO DE VIVAR?
- Did she know it was ???? ROMO DE VIVAR but in an effort save the ROMO DE VIVAR family from scandal blamed a "nobody," like Diego XAIMES?
- Was she scared of what would happen to her if word got out that it was a ROMO DE VIVAR?
- And which ROMO DE VIVARs would be likely candidates?
Well for the last question I can say that it could be:
- Diego ROMO DE VIVAR (b.1589, d.1650)
- Juan ROMO DE VIVAR (b. Abt. 1632)
- Pedro ROMO DE VIVAR (b. 1632)
- Diego ROMO DE VIVAR (b. Abt. 1630)
- Geronimo ROMO DE VIVAR (?)
- Francisco ROMO DE VIVAR (b.1644)
Recently, Armanco Antunano was assigned as Administrator for the FamilyTreeDNA.com web site group called "Nueva Galicia DNA Project", which I strongly urge everyone to join. (I'm not paid by them to promote it) As it holds the potential to reveal similar situations like mine. After joining the group Armando analyzed my YDNA and concluded without a doubt that I am a ROMO DE VIVAR. YDNA does not lie. Go figure...
Why Diego JAIME was listed as the father of Jorge JAIME in those marriage investigation records, we'll never know. But I would like know which ROMO was Jorge XAIMES' father to finally bring closure to years of research. In an effort to do this, I would like to know if there is any ROMO on this site that can trace their ancestry to any of these men, and has also submitted their YDNA.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Luis (JAIME?)
Diego Jaime
It occurred to me that another possibility is that Diego Jaime, listed as the father of Jorge, may have actually been a son of a Romo de Vivar. I've seen statistics that up to a quarter of the tests to establish paternity today come back negative.
Deedra Corona
Diego Jaime
Yes, that is a possibility that Diego Jaime, listed as the father of Jorge,
may have actually been a son of a Romo de Vivar. I had brought it up to
Luis outside of the thread. However, it is just as possible that Diego
Jaime in reality was Diego Romo de Vivar y Rangel Pequero. Since Jorge was
an hijo de padres no conocidos the surname was given to him arbitrarily.
Meaning the surname was probably not based on his supposed paternity.
As far as the statistic that up to a quarter of the tests to establish
paternity today come back negative.Those tests were done to begin with
because they weren't sure of the paternity so that automatically inflates
the negative tests as compared to the regular population that doesn't
question their paternity. I imagine that the mother of Jorge reported the
father to be Diego Romo but since the given surname was Jaime the testigos
in the dispensa and the scribe writing the dispensa were either confused or
didn't know.
So far all of the people with well documented ancestry to a known founder
have shown to have Y-DNA that matches other people with the same surname
that also have well documented ancestry. There is a case where a person had
an error in his documentation but once the documents were looked at and the
error found the DNA match with another family made sense.
Armando
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:32 PM, wrote:
> It occurred to me that another possibility is that Diego Jaime, listed as
> the father of Jorge, may have actually been a son of a Romo de Vivar. I've
> seen statistics that up to a quarter of the tests to establish paternity
> today come back negative. Deedra Corona
Diego Jaime...mystery partially solved
Hello. My name is Amando Jayme and I am a relatively new member to the Nuestros Ranchos site and group. I am very excited to learn from others, contribute and possibly assist others with their research. I've been following some of the Nuestros Ranchos threads, specifically related to the Jorge Jaime of Aguascalientes exchanges.
Well, it's been approximately three years and we now know that Jorge Jaime is not a Romo de Vivar. Three Ydna tests from three different sons and descendant lines (including mine) do not match the Romo DNA. I match the other testers on the 37 marker Ydna test at genetic distances of 1 and 3. Ironically, one of the testers lives near me and is a descendant of Tadeo Antonio Jaime, the grandson of Jorge whose marriage record was the first known mention of Diego Jaime and Maria de Sandobal y Olibarri--Jorge's parents.
My quest is now to locate the Diego Jaime and possible descendants or ancestors. This might be a challenge since a couple of the prime candidates for the "real" Diego are priests or Order brothers. Here are four possible candidates. If anyone knows of family members/descendants or ancestors of these Diego Jaime's, please let me know:
1. Diego Jaime de Figueroa--Zacatecas, Notarial records from 1659 to 1678 http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/notary/view/letter/J
2. Diego Jaime de la Campa--Autlan, Jalisco, This one is interesting because the index from the Guadalajara Dispensa c. 1676 reads as follows: "151 diego jaimes de la campa - priesthood / autlan"
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-629C-QH?i=150&wc=3J43-HZS%…
3. Fray Diego Xaimes of Parroquia San Matias in Pinos, Zacatecas 1688. He is listed as the Guardian of the Convent on this baptism record. Image 64 of 749
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-B73Q-Z?i=63&wc=3PSM-RMS%3A…
"...18 noviembre 1688: Daniela Isabel que nacio a trece de octubre de dicho año y a quien ‘’in periculo mortis’’ bautizo legitamente en su casa el padre fray Diego Jaime Guardian de este convento de Sierra de Pinos de el cual me certifique haberlo hecho, es hija legitima de el capitán Alonso de Guzmán y dona Polonia de Castañeda, su esposa. Fue su padrino en el bautismo José de Guzmán y Tomasa de Carrión advertioles dicho personas el parentesco espiritual y le asistió en el catecismo dicha madrina y Antonio de Castañeda".
4. Fray Diego Jaimes Ricardo Villavicencio. Active in Puebla as a priest and author of "LUZ Y MÉTODO DE CONFESAR IDÓLATRAS Y DESTIERRO DE IDOLATRÍAS", published in Puebla in 1692. (Is he the same Diego as the one outlined in #3 above? Possibly).
In addition, there was another Fray Diego Jaime working as a missionary in Peru and Bolivia in 1677-1678...are any of these priests/Friars the same person? I am inclined to say that is a possibility. Finding DNA for a priest and/or his family will be extremely challenging to say the least.
Jaime
Amando,
Jorge Jaime is an ancestor of mine from his son Florentino Jaime. is the theory that Diego Romo de Vivar that married Luisa de los Angeles is the actual father of Jorge Jaimes and abandoned him or is it that Diego Romo de Vivar that's married to Maria Rangel had a natural born child with a girl named Jaime and that child became Diego Jaime who married the Olibarri girl and then had Jorge Jaime. I'm not sure whats going on.
Danny C. Alonso
Jaime
Danny-Thanks for your question. Actually, none of your scenarios are true or the real picture. In short, Jorge Jaime is NOT a Romo de Vivar as previously suspected. Until DNA evidence from me and three other Jaime's entered the picture, all theories were speculation and mere guesses. DNA evidence from three Jaime descendants, including me, proved that the Romo de Vivar DNA entered a specific Jaime line in the early to mid-1800s--most likely with one son of Jose Maximo Jaime. I also descend from Jose Maximo Jaime but from a different son than the Jaime cousin who tested as a Romo de Vivar.
The Jaime Ydna at ftDNA was tested from descendants of three of Florentino's sons---Tadeo, Ignacio and Leonicio. All three of us matched which means Jorge is the son of Diego Jaime and Maria de Sandobal y Olibarri and not a Romo. It's complicated so I hope that makes sense. I have more potential testing prospects but since all current Jaime autosomal and Ydna leads back to Jorge Jaime and no one else, I strongly suspect Diego was either a priest or brother of an Order like the Franciscans or a very prominent individual in the region. The Ydna footprint is very narrow for Jorge Jaime and does not branch off to other Jaime families at this point in time. This fact alone leads me to believe that the Ydna footprint was very small, possibly isolated to one child, Jorge Jaime.
Hope this helps.
Amando
Jaime
Amando,
in Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara it says Diego Jaimes de la Campa is the son of Juan de Jaimes and Da Maria de la Campa:
Autlán. Jal. Marzo 17 de 1676 - Autos sobre fe de bautismo - Información sobre
el bautizo de Don Diego Jaimes de la Campa. Clérigo Diácono de este Obispado,
hijo legítimo de Juan de Jaimes y Doña María de la Campa, difuntos vecinos que
fueron del Pueblo de Autlan. Declaración de Antonio de Morales, de 45 años de
edad y vecino de este pueblo: Que el dicho Diego Jaimes de la Campa, anda en 26
años que cumplirá por noviembre de este presente año, porque se acuerda muy bien
que nació a 12 de Noviembre día de San Diego, el año de 50. porque luego el
siguiente do 51 por junio, nació Antonio de Morales, hijo de este testigo, como
consta de un librito en que tiene asentados este testigo los días en que
nacieron y se bautizaron sus hijos. En el Pueblo de Autlan en 3 de abril de
1676, se mandó auto de remisión para el Sr. Provisor...
Also I don't know if the other Diego Jaime's are the same as don Diego Jaime de la Campa, but Don Diego Jaime de la Campa was in Zacatecas. On one document he's listed as El Licenciado Don Diego Jaime de la Campa, lugarteniente de cura, vicario y juez eclesiástico del Valle de Santa Cruz (ahora Villanueva, Zac. ). En el año de 1677. He was also in Fresnillo, Zacatecas.
Danny C. Alonso
Jaime
Danny--Thank you for the follow-up. I have the two documents/articles you reference and am focused on the historical anthology outlined by Bernardo del Hoyo Calzada because of its great detail on Diego Jaime de la Campa's place within the de la Campa y Cos family, the Church, and the region. Also, this Diego would have been 19 years old if and/or when he fathered Jorge Jaime making the "prominent son who strayed a bit" theory more palatable. His original Autlan, Jalisco location for the priesthood "baptism", the placement of Jorge Jaime in a Franciscan monastery, and Diego's standing as a lawyer and eventual, near-secular ecclesiastical judge makes great sense in this potential scenario. In addition, this Diego could be the same Diego Jaime listed as the Guardian of the Convent in Pinos, Zacatecas in 1688. However, without hard-core paper connections and Ydna links, we are back to the speculation situation. My goal with this Diego Jaime is to locate a descendant of Diego's brother, cousin or uncle from the same Jaime line--assuming he had any of those. The key is locating more male descendants/relatives of Juan de Jaimes, this Diego's father.
On another note, the del Hoyo Calzada anthology/chronicle is an absolutely fascinating read!
Jaime
Amando,
This is very interesting. I hope youre able to solve this mystery. i'd really like to know who the origin of the Jaime family is.
Danny C. Alonso
Jaime
Thanks Danny--I will keep you posted on any and all progress. By the way, I added Diego Jaimes de la Campa to wikitree as an unconnected record too.
Amando
Origen del apellido Jaime
Hola a todos:
Hace tiempo escuché que el apellido Jaime se refiere a los descendientes del Rey Jaime I de Aragón. ¿Será posible comparar los resultados con otros de España?
Resultaría interesante ya que dicho rey desciende de los emperadores de Bizancio.
Respecto del cambio de apellido de Romo a Jaime, creo que es posible que niño hubiera sido entregado a la familia Jaime para su crianza. Algunos hijos naturales se depositaban con personas de confianza y se les llegaba a dotar económicamente.
También hay una familia Jaime en Querétaro desde el siglo XVII incluso hay una calle de Jaime (actualmente Allende entre Arteaga y Pino Suarez) pero no localicé ningún Diego.
Saludos
Marcelina
Jaime
Marcelina - Hola y gracias por los comentarios. El DNA de Jaime no coincide con el DNA de Romo y las pruebas determinaron que Jorge Jaime no es un Romo. Tres hombres Jaime de tres diferentes descendientes de Jorges 'coinciden con muestras de DNA para eliminar la posibilidad Romo.
Amando
Mystery Solved, Scandal
maybe mari sandoval olibarri was married to diego jaime and cheated on her husband with a man with the last name romo de vivar.
Mystery Solved, Scandal
There are many dispensas with errors. We can't take as fact that Maria Sandoval Olibarri actually married a person named Diego Jaime. Has anyone ever found another document mentioning a Diego Jaime around 1669? Since Jorge was an hijo de padres no conocidos neither the mother or the father claimed the child at baptism. Since no one claimed the child at baptism the surname given to Jorge could have been for any number of reasons. Therefore, when the dispensa was made it could have been assumed that the surname should be Jaime but was actually another such as Romo. There are many too many events lacking documentation other than the dispensa.
I looked up the información matrimonial of Jorge Xaimes since many times the age is mentioned in it. At the bottom of the first paragraph on the left at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12123-157508-22?cc=1502404… in May 1694 he stated he was 25 years old giving a birthdate about 1669. That means the Diego Romo de Vivar that died in 1650 could not have been the father. The Diego Romo de Vivar born about 1630, married about 1655 to Luisa de los Ángeles de los Reyes, widowed Dec 1662, and buried 19 Dec 1691 is a good candidate for Diego "Jaime".
Hopefully in the near future the Big Y test from FTDNA will have an ability to determine which SNPs are shared by the descendants of the Romo branches and which are new. There is a new SNP every one to two generations. http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=26#1383 So if the new Big Y test is able to identify which SNPs belonged to which branches then the Luis might be able to identify which branch he belongs to if enough people get the test. The only way they can compare SNPs is if multiple Romo descendants get the test. Around February the results will be posted for people that have had the Big Y test and that is when we will see what is really possible with the test since there are a lot of people that have purchased the test already. If it is proven to be reliable and the price goes down a lot it could end up being the only way to determine which branch he was from.
Armando
Mystery Solved, Scandal Revealed?
Thanks Armando. I took a look at Juan DELGADO's testimony for Jorge JAIME https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12123-157508-22?cc=1502404… and couldn't find any mention of Jorge JAIME's age. On what line is it exactly on the lower left hand side? My eyes must be going.. :-(
So I guess that would leave us with:
Now all I have to do is hit the lottery so I can take the Big Y test. :-P
Do you know of any other ROMO DE VIVAR descendants that have, or are taking the Big Y?
Mystery Solved, Scandal Revealed?
Hello Luis,
I had described the location as "At the bottom of the first paragraph on the left" The testimony of Juan Delgado is the second paragraph. If you look above that paragraph and look at the 3rd from the last line, or the 14th line from the top, you will see "ser de hedad de veinte y cinco años y no firmó por que dijo no saber firmolo su merced dicho señor vicario y juez ecclesiastico."
Maybe in a year they offer a big sale. First we need to see the results of other people that have tested to see how many SNP markers they find for people that have a common ancestor in the last 8-12 generations.
I haven't noticed or been told about any other Romo de Vivar descendants that have ordered the test.
Armando
Interesting...
Well done! I am also a descendant of Jorge, so this is interesting. Unfortunately, I do not get my Y-chromosome or my mtDNA from Aguascalientes, so neither would have been of any help to me.
Thanks!
Scott Stockwell
Mystery Solved, scandal revealed?
Congratualtions Luis! Have you contacted Daniel Mendez de Camino? I met him years ago in a FHL. If I recall correctly, the same Jorge Jayme was his brick wall and I'm sure he would love to know what you have discovered. Please let us know of your progress. This line is in my family, too. (Don't know if you remember)
Sherri Mora
Mystery Solved, scandal revealed?
Luis Jaime: Of course I remember prima! Great to hear from you! I still check your tree once in awhile to see what's new. ;-) Thanks for the invite.
I vaguely recall something in our conversations about you meeting someone at the FHL but couldn't remember the details. If you could put me in touch with with Daniel I would greatly appreciate it.
If anyone is also related to Maria SANDOBAL ORIBARRI I'd like to hear from the as well.
And thanks again to Nuestros Ranchos, Miguel BELTRAN, Armando ANTUNANO and of course Connie DOMINGUEZ, who I could never thank enough. ;-)