Hello Everyone!
I have become confused so anyone that can help me I would appreciate it! I had the parents for Toribio Hernandez de Arellano 1530(spouse: Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza) as Juan Hernandez de Hijar and Isabel Ramirez de Arellano but as I recheck all my info trying to put it together I find that he is also listed with Diego Ramirez and Ines de Brienes as his parents. Which is correct?
Sofia
Hola a Todos!
Estoy confudida, si algien me puede ayudar lo agradeseria mucho. Yo tenia los padres de Toribio Hernandez de Arellano 1530(su mujer: Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza) como Juan Hernandez de Hijar y Isabel Ramirez de Arellano pero cuando miro para confirmar mi información encuentro que tambien ponen Diego Ramirez y Ines de Brienes como sus papas. ¿Cual es corecto?
Sofia
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Daniel,
I think that would be a great idea to get a copy of those documents and
address the topic with Mariano Gonzalez Leal. I think it's about time we
solve this mystery. Or at least rule out certain families as the parents of
Toribio.
Paige
>>>>">>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 10:12:59 -0700
> From: Daniel Alejandro M?ndez de Torres y Camino
>
> To: Nuestros Ranchos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Paige,
>
> Toribio's estimated birth year was set at 1530 due to the various
> notorial, wills, birth records, etc that are found in Santa Maria de los
> Lagos and La Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara. I personally do not have these,
> but Mariano Gonzalez Leal has them several copies of them. I can ask if I
> can get a copy or bring up the subject to his attention if you would like.
> Please, remember until there is an actual document that states the day,
> month and year it is not scripture. Priest committed errors, even some
> people it appears did not know what year they were born, etc. Even if the
> record says, he was (i.e. 30) it does not satisfy me until I have a primary
> source. Many people have been trying to connect our ancestors to the royal
> houses of Europe. Many of has have succeeded, but in the case of Toribio
> and Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza. We need documents. We can't simply say, I
> think. We need to get into a habit of using documents. I have found many
> websites with his parents as Juan Fernan
> dez de Hijar, el conde de Belchite. My question is what document do they
> have to prove it? None. Good eye on the his death date, this rules it out.
>
> I am restless of finding people constantly plagiarizing, assuming, and
> posting on these "so-called" genealogical websites. I have been a victim of
> such behavior. I spend hours, studying, analyzing, ordering documents from
> Spain, and then I share it and people pass it off as their own work. And
> then it gets leaked and it appears on these websites, Genenet, Genie,
> Ancestry, etc. Never sourced. I choose to publish my work now before I
> release it.
>
> Daniel MdTC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 13:43:48 -0700
> From: Mia Montemayor
> To: "research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hola Page and Daniel,
>
> It's the sites like you mention geni and the others that really confused me
> going back to the 1300s with ancestors of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano.
> When I started I wasn't aware that they had false information and thought
> it must be known information and I was convinced I descended from Cort?s
> and many others. I still think that if you use apellidos like Hurtado de
> Mendoza or Ramirez de Arellano that their must be a connection to those
> ruling houses and would just like to know which line is correct.
>
> Mia
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Hola Page and Daniel,
It's the sites like you mention geni and the others that really confused me
going back to the 1300s with ancestors of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano.
When I started I wasn't aware that they had false information and thought
it must be known information and I was convinced I descended from Cortés
and many others. I still think that if you use apellidos like Hurtado de
Mendoza or Ramirez de Arellano that their must be a connection to those
ruling houses and would just like to know which line is correct.
Mia
Toribio Hernandez de Arellano Santillana
Unfortunately, we have not come up with the document that states who. Toribios father and mother are. Though most of my research indicates that he does belong to this Fernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano family. There is another Ramirez de Arellano family that converted to Catholicism and was originally Jewish. My research has led to the conclusion that Toribio did not belong to the Converso Ramirez de Arellano and did belong to the Ramirez de Arellano de Santillana family. Much discussion of the information that we do have has led to the hypothesis that he was a grandson of Juan Fernandez de Hijar and not his son. This hypothesis has Toribio as possibly being born in the "new world". This hypothesis includes the idea that he was baptized with the first name of an ancestor but went by Toribio.
We are left to hypothesize until we find a primary source that directly links him to his parents.
R.A.Ricci
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Mia,
I don't know anything about this topic, but I did have a question. I notice
that in several places on the forum, Toribio Hernandez de Arellano's birth
is said to be 1530; my question is, is that date known or is it just a
guess? Because I looked up Juan Fernandez de Hijar and he died June
29th, 1509, which would be 21 years before Toribio Hernandez de Arellano
was born if 1530 is right.
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Paige,
Toribio's estimated birth year was set at 1530 due to the various notorial, wills, birth records, etc that are found in Santa Maria de los Lagos and La Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara. I personally do not have these, but Mariano Gonzalez Leal has them several copies of them. I can ask if I can get a copy or bring up the subject to his attention if you would like. Please, remember until there is an actual document that states the day, month and year it is not scripture. Priest committed errors, even some people it appears did not know what year they were born, etc. Even if the record says, he was (i.e. 30) it does not satisfy me until I have a primary source. Many people have been trying to connect our ancestors to the royal houses of Europe. Many of has have succeeded, but in the case of Toribio and Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza. We need documents. We can't simply say, I think. We need to get into a habit of using documents. I have found many websites with his parents as Juan Fernan
dez de Hijar, el conde de Belchite. My question is what document do they have to prove it? None. Good eye on the his death date, this rules it out.
I am restless of finding people constantly plagiarizing, assuming, and posting on these "so-called" genealogical websites. I have been a victim of such behavior. I spend hours, studying, analyzing, ordering documents from Spain, and then I share it and people pass it off as their own work. And then it gets leaked and it appears on these websites, Genenet, Genie, Ancestry, etc. Never sourced. I choose to publish my work now before I release it.
Daniel MdTC
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Hello all,
I was curious what new information is available regarding the ancestry
of Toribio Hernandez de Arellano, the spouse of Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza.
I reviewed many older Nuestros Ranchos forums regarding Toribio and most
say that he's the son of Count Juan Fernandez de Hijar and Isabel de
Arellano. Does anyone know if that's true?
Mia
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Mia,
There is no direct evidence that they are his parents. I believe when it was discussed originally in the forum, it was a mere hypothesis. Though there exists some evidence that may point that direction, but we cannot simply "assume" that's how it is. I am amazed after doing a quick google search the many hits I got. Do these people simply copy, paste and pass information without citations? Where are the documents? Have they studied them page by page? Where did they obtain? What evidence exists that names his parents? This is not genealogy, I get restless of people doing such things.
DMdTC
Direct evidence
Mia ,
I agree with Daniel. We have not come up with direct evidence for his parents. We have only come up with information that leads us to believe who his parents are but lack confirmation. Without confirmation it is just a hypothesis based on the information we have at hand. Yet it is not just a shot in the dark. It is not just a guess. The hypothesis is an educated guess based on the evidence that we do possess.
I do list his parents in my family tree but the lack of confirmation has me placein parenthesis "check notes" as to why they are his probable parents. In my notes The parents that I list are based on circumstantial evidence only and he does descend from the Hernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano family
I used to believe that it is possible that Toribio is not the name given to him at birth. If Toribio was a nickname that later stuck, then his baptismal name should have been used for the marriage sacrament according to canon law. Documents other than marriage would refer to him as Toribio. I have stated this hypothesis before on previous post. As I now believe Toribio to be a descendant, and not a son of Juan Fernandez de Hijar, I believe that we would find his documents as Toribio Sanchis Fernandez. If he is Toribio Sanchis Fernandez then he was born in Valencia, Spain.
R A Ricci
Toribio Hernandez Ramirez Santillana de Arellano
I have looked through my records and confirmed that Diego Ramires and Ines Brenes are not the parents of Toribio Hernandez Ramirez.
Diego's son Gonzalo married Toribio's grandaughter.
It appears Diego and Toribio are related and a marriage dispensation would confirm this.
I still believe that Juan Hernandez de Hijar and Isabel Ramirez de Arellano are Toribio's parents. All evidence that I have points in this direction.
R.A.Ricci
Toribio Hernandez Ramirez Santillana de Arellano
Diego Ramirez and Ines Brenes' descendants would have created the Ramirez
de Mendoza after the Ramirez de Arellano married hurtado de Mendoza. I agree
with Juan Hernandez de Hijar and Isabel Ramirez de Arellano we just need that solid
document. There has to be some sort of document somewhere people dont just pop out
of no where.
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Toribio Hernandez Ramirez Santillana deArellano
I believe that because we have not found this document in mexico that there is a high probability that they were married in spain and that is where we would find a dispensation due to their blood relationship.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 09:58:06
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Toribio Hernandez Ramirez Santillana de
Arellano
Diego Ramirez and Ines Brenes' descendants would have created the Ramirez
de Mendoza after the Ramirez de Arellano married hurtado de Mendoza. I agree
with Juan Hernandez de Hijar and Isabel Ramirez de Arellano we just need that solid
document. There has to be some sort of document somewhere people dont just pop out
of no where.
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=…
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
I have toribio hernandez santillana De arellano as son of the first couple.
Diego ramirez santiallana de arellano has only 2 sons in my records.
------Original Message------
From: sceleste_m@hotmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Sent: Apr 26, 2010 5:57 AM
Hello Everyone!
I have become confused so anyone that can help me I would appreciate it! I had the parents for Toribio Hernandez de Arellano 1530(spouse: Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza) as Juan Hernandez de Hijar and Isabel Ramirez de Arellano but as I recheck all my info trying to put it together I find that he is also listed with Diego Ramirez and Ines de Brienes as his parents. Which is correct?
Sofia
Hola a Todos!
Estoy confudida, si algien me puede ayudar lo agradeseria mucho. Yo tenia los padres de Toribio Hernandez de Arellano 1530(su mujer: Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza) como Juan Hernandez de Hijar y Isabel Ramirez de Arellano pero cuando miro para confirmar mi información encuentro que tambien ponen Diego Ramirez y Ines de Brienes como sus papas. ¿Cual es corecto?
Sofia
TORIBIO HERNANDEZ DE ARELLANO
Does anyone have more info on Toribio Hernandez de Arellano?
thank you.
Sofia