I have noticed that some members of the group spell México with a J, ie. Méjico.
For exmaple in Daniel's message from about a year ago he wrote:
Once you reach Manuel's grandfather who ever he may have been you will connecto to all of us in someway, youll go back so far in your genealogy 1500-1600, and given the right line back to the Kings of Spain and princes of Europe, I connect to royalty thanks to my Spanish, Portuguese and German ancestry. Its a good feeling knowing where you come from but the best is for the perservation for future generations. Since you have alteño ancestors, you're full spanish i suppose, until we can get further possibly italian, portugues, french and others who arrived in Méjico. -Daniel
I was just wondering about the politics/tradition/meaning behind the use of such a spelling and would appreciate any comments.
Mexicano as an ethnic identity prior to 1820
First of all, I would like to say that I have enjoyed all of the discussion (and banter?) on the Mejico vs. Mexico debate.
Daniel, you write:
"I agree with Eduardo, Mexico wasnt Mexico until around the time of the Revolution. When New Spain declared independence, Mexico was just a pure thought. It wouldnt be until the Mexican Revolution that would unite Mexico socailly and politically, even though it somewhat still isnt. Can anyone comment on this part? I was told no one really used the nationality Mejicano?"
There certainly was an ethnic identity of being mexicano long before independence. The Mexica were one of the three (and principal) ethnic groups that formed the triple alliance of the Aztec empire. The term Aztec is an ex-post academic invention precisely to differentiate the Mexican empire (pre-colonization), its culture, society, etc. from that related to the modern concept of Mexico (which includes many additional territories and lacks some such as El Salvador). There are plenty of colonial documents that refer to "la nacion mexicana" and even more to the "lengua mexicana" including official colonial legal documents written in "la lengua mexicana" as this was the lingua franca of New Spain for quite some time after the conauest.
I have even run across documents where tlaxcaltec colonizers adamantly declare that they are NOT mexicanos (I would imagine that this was because the Mexica were their historic enemies and they had helped the Spaniards defeat them).
Mexicano as an ethnic identity prior to 1820
Whn I said Mejicanos I meant the Spanish colonists and their descendants Los Criollos
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Méjico vs. Mexico
This is just to expand on previous comments.
According to DICCIONARIO PANHISPÁNICO DE DUDAS - Primera edición (octubre 2005) from the Real Academia Española that during the Middle Ages the X was pronounced similar the current way of sh in English and the ch in French.
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=x
Although Antonio de Nebrija, the author of la primera gramática española (1492), wrote "La x, ya dijimos qué son tiene en el latín, y que no es otra cosa sino breviatura de cs; nosotros dámosle tal pronunciación, cual suena en las primeras letras de estas dicciones: xenabe, xabón, o en las últimas de aquestas: relox, balax; mucho contra su naturaleza, porque esta pronunciación, como dijimos, es propia de la lengua arábiga, de donde parece que vino a nuestro lenguaje."
http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/libro1.html#5
The Real Academia Española also asks for the world to respect México and to spell it's name and other similar names to be spelled in this way.
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=M%E9xico
However many refuse to respect the spelling of México.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=211016
The use of x as /sh/ still exists in Spain with the Basque names and words such as Xavier and Etxeverría. Xavi from FC Barcelona is Catalan but the etymological origin of his name is Basque and is pronounced by the whole country of Spain as Shavi.
Armando
Méjico vs. Mexico
Its not that people disrespect the spelling of Mexico, I spell it Mejico b/c thats how I was taught by my parents. My father dislikes the X. Because in Spanish it would make the S sound. I always get criticized by other mejicanos but I always tell them, a lot of people in Mexico spell it like that. -Daniel
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Méjico vs. Mexico
My comment wasn't directed at you. It was a comment of how the wordreference.com thread turned out. I just thought it would an interesting addition to the same subject of the spelling/pronunciation.
Armando
X vs J WAS Méjico vs. Mexico
My grandma was from Jerez, Zacatecas, and in doing my genealogical
research on her family lines, the earliest spellings of the town has
always been Xeres. The writers were the priests, who were Spanish.
In the 1820s on, I believe it has been spelled Jerez. Just throwing
in my "dos centavos" in the general discussion, Marge:)
Méjico vs. Mexico
To Arturo:
The use of the letter "x" in Spanish is one of the strongest indicators of an Arabic influence in the language. At some point the Academia Real decided that the sound represented by the "x" wasn't acceptable anymore. I no longer remember which edition of their dictionary enunciates the change. The decision to keep the "x" in the Spanish of the Americas was made at the time the nations of the western hemisphere broke away from Spanish political control.
The sound in Arabic is made by bending back the tongue and vibrating the back part of the velum in the buccal cavity at the same time forcing air into the pharyngeal area. What actually occurred is that the sounds of Spanish have become more oral and less guttural. When the christians arrived in the western hemisphere the almost 100% phonetic ability of 6th century Spanish came in handy. Spanish succeeded in graphically representing virtually every sound they heard in the languages of the newly discovered indigenes. The sound is somewhat complicated to use. The sound has been replaced in Spanish without the feature of doubling the tongue back. Reading the church records will show you that it took awhile to settle on whether to use a "j, g, h, or x" in standard orthography. The languages of the western hemisphere did not create the need for the letter "x". Sixteenth century Spanish already had been using that letter for centuries before 1492. Linguists have decided on using "j" with the vowels "a, o, u" and "g" with vowels "e, I". The reason is a somewhat Germanic one- in German the vowels "a, o, u" are considered "strong" and need the "j". The others are weak and the letter "g" will do. My German instructor used this terminology but it's possible that it is no longer described in that fashion.
Many years ago (class of '61) my language professors stated that the rejection of the "j" in the name of Mexico was deliberately done. It was a conscious act of rejecting the past of Spanish oppressive rule. I personally consider it an attempt to affront those whose nation is no longer under the domination of Spain.
I hope I answered at least some of your question and didn't just "muddy the waters."
-----Original Message-----
>From: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
>Sent: Sep 6, 2009 3:39 AM
>To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Méjico vs. Mexico
>
>I have noticed that some members of the group spell México with a J, ie. Méjico.
>
>For exmaple in Daniel's message from about a year ago he wrote:
>
>Once you reach Manuel's grandfather who ever he may have been you will connecto to all of us in someway, youll go back so far in your genealogy 1500-1600, and given the right line back to the Kings of Spain and princes of Europe, I connect to royalty thanks to my Spanish, Portuguese and German ancestry. Its a good feeling knowing where you come from but the best is for the perservation for future generations. Since you have alteño ancestors, you're full spanish i suppose, until we can get further possibly italian, portugues, french and others who arrived in Méjico. -Daniel
>
>I was just wondering about the politics/tradition/meaning behind the use of such a spelling and would appreciate any comments.
Méjico vs. Mexico
"The sound in Arabic is made by bending back the tongue and vibrating the back part of the velum in the buccal cavity at the same time forcing air into the pharyngeal area"?
Arturo, don't try this at home. It sounds dangerous.
Emilie ; arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: David P. Delgado
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Méjico vs. Mexico
To Arturo:
The use of the letter "x" in Spanish is one of the strongest indicators of an Arabic influence in the language. At some point the Academia Real decided that the sound represented by the "x" wasn't acceptable anymore. I no longer remember which edition of their dictionary enunciates the change. The decision to keep the "x" in the Spanish of the Americas was made at the time the nations of the western hemisphere broke away from Spanish political control.
The sound in Arabic is made by bending back the tongue and vibrating the back part of the velum in the buccal cavity at the same time forcing air into the pharyngeal area. What actually occurred is that the sounds of Spanish have become more oral and less guttural. When the christians arrived in the western hemisphere the almost 100% phonetic ability of 6th century Spanish came in handy. Spanish succeeded in graphically representing virtually every sound they heard in the languages of the newly discovered indigenes. The sound is somewhat complicated to use. The sound has been replaced in Spanish without the feature of doubling the tongue back. Reading the church records will show you that it took awhile to settle on whether to use a "j, g, h, or x" in standard orthography. The languages of the western hemisphere did not create the need for the letter "x". Sixteenth century Spanish already had been using that letter for centuries before 1492. Linguists have decided on using "j" with the vowels "a, o, u" and "g" with vowels "e, I". The reason is a somewhat Germanic one- in German the vowels "a, o, u" are considered "strong" and need the "j". The others are weak and the letter "g" will do. My German instructor used this terminology but it's possible that it is no longer described in that fashion.
Many years ago (class of '61) my language professors stated that the rejection of the "j" in the name of Mexico was deliberately done. It was a conscious act of rejecting the past of Spanish oppressive rule. I personally consider it an attempt to affront those whose nation is no longer under the domination of Spain.
I hope I answered at least some of your question and didn't just "muddy the waters."
-----Original Message-----
>From: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
>Sent: Sep 6, 2009 3:39 AM
>To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Méjico vs. Mexico
>
>I have noticed that some members of the group spell México with a J, ie. Méjico.
>
>For exmaple in Daniel's message from about a year ago he wrote:
>
>Once you reach Manuel's grandfather who ever he may have been you will connecto to all of us in someway, youll go back so far in your genealogy 1500-1600, and given the right line back to the Kings of Spain and princes of Europe, I connect to royalty thanks to my Spanish, Portuguese and German ancestry. Its a good feeling knowing where you come from but the best is for the perservation for future generations. Since you have alteño ancestors, you're full spanish i suppose, until we can get further possibly italian, portugues, french and others who arrived in Méjico. -Daniel
>
>I was just wondering about the politics/tradition/meaning behind the use of such a spelling and would appreciate any comments.
México is written with X, thas has a little of cross
The cover of my passport says MEXICO, and below is the seal of the country with the official name: ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS. In Spain they usually spell it with J.
The letter X is pronounced in different ways in Mexican Spanish, especially with words derived from native languages.
Sometimes we pronounce it like a Spahish J (sort of English H with thick Mexican accent): México, Texas, Oaxaca, Xalisco, Xalapa, Xavier.
Sometimes like a CS (English X): Texcoco, examen, explicar
Sometimes like S: Xochimilco, Xóchitl
Sometimes like SH: Xola
In every official document (money, birth certificates, military and voter's registration) you will find the name of the country written with an X (Estados Unidos Mexicanos), and also in any official international delegation (we are just MEXICO at the United Nations, OEA, Olympics, World Cup).
There is a famous poem by Ricardo López Méndez that says: "México, creo en ti, porque escribes tu nombre con la equis que algo tiene de cruz y de calvario" (Mexico, I believe in you, because you write your name with an X that has a little of cross and of calvary).
Warmest regards,
VN
México is written with X, thas has a little of cross
So, what do you mean by this. Ok, it is currently written with an X but you
have to realize that México was not always México. In the past it did not
exist; things, places, people need to be looked at in their historical
setting when doing genealogy. The truth is that México as it exists today
used to be part of a different country, just like the United States of
America and they both usted to have different names. Nothing to be ashamed
about. The fact remains that when you are talking about pre-1900, it is not
México. So there should be no problem realizing that the names are different
for different time periods, and should not be designated as having their
name spelled in just one way.
Do not get me wrong, if one is talking about modern México, post 1900, then
the current writing of the name should be used.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 4:13 PM, wrote:
> The cover of my passport says MEXICO, and below is the seal of the country
> with the official name: ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS. In Spain they usually
> spell it with J.
> The letter X is pronounced in different ways in Mexican Spanish, especially
> with words derived from native languages. Sometimes we pronounce it like a
> Spahish J (sort of English H with thick Mexican accent): México, Texas,
> Oaxaca, Xalisco, Xalapa, Xavier.
> Sometimes like a CS (English X): Texcoco, examen, explicar
> Sometimes like S: Xochimilco, Xóchitl
> Sometimes like SH: Xola
> In every official document (money, birth certificates, military and voter's
> registration) you will find the name of the country written with an X
> (Estados Unidos Mexicanos), and also in any official international
> delegation (we are just MEXICO at the United Nations, OEA, Olympics, World
> Cup).
> There is a famous poem by Ricardo López Méndez that says: "México, creo en
> ti, porque escribes tu nombre con la equis que algo tiene de cruz y de
> calvario" (Mexico, I beleive in you, because you write your name with an X
> that has a little of cross and of calvary).
> Warmest regards,
> VN
we are a little older
Well, the original commentary was that "I was just wondering about the politics/tradition/meaning behind the use of such a spelling and would appreciate any comments". So what I mean is that in the 20th and 21st Centuries the official name of the country is written with X which is pronounced as a Spanish J, either if you use the long name of "Estados Unidos Mexicanos", the also official short name of "México", or the less common but also used "República Mexicana", so it falls in the politics. In the past Jalisco was written as Xalisco, the capital of Veracruz to date is Xalapa, and the chiles named after it are known as Jalapeños, yet we pronounce the X as SH when talking about the Mexicas. Regarding the pre-1900's existance of Mexico, I'm pretty sure we have been officially using one or another form of the name since the 1820's, although I'm not sure about the spelling or pronunciation.
México in numismatics and philately
Interesting to see that in postage stamps:
-On 15 May, 1864 the regency replaced the existing stamps with the Eagle stamps depicting the Coat of arms of Mexico, an eagle killing a snake. A crown was added to the eagle to indicate the monarchy and the spelling was changed from "Méjico" to "México"-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Mexico
Yet in money the X has been used since the first empire in the 1820's:
http://www.banxico.org.mx/sitioingles/billetesymonedas/didactico/notesM…
I don't know if there have been any coins or bills issued with the J.
Best,
VN
México is written with X, thas has a little of cross
I agree with Eduardo, Mexico wasnt Mexico until around the time of the Revolution. When New Spain declared independence, Mexico was just a pure thought. It wouldnt be until the Mexican Revolution that would unite Mexico socailly and politically, even though it somewhat still isnt. Can anyone comment on this part? I was told no one really used the nationality Mejicano? Socially wise people still used there raza to describe people, just español was replaced with guerro or blanco? The last pre modern Mejico census around the time of the revolution stated every persons race. This is why now united as Mexicans, people get confused what their race is, eventhough Mexican is not a race, its a nationality. Mexicans can be, white, black, mestizo, asian and anything between.
Also, there is no such thing as Mexican Spanish. Spanish spoken in Mexico is called Castellano. -Daniel
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¡me canso manito que hay español mexicano!
I've lived in Mexico for decades and I still have not met any Mexican who claims to speak Castellano, that term is mainy used n Spain because it is politically incorrect to call the language Spanish since there are other "Spanish languages" as catalán, gallego and vasco. We speak español, yet the Spanish we speak is different to the one spoken in other countries like Argentina and Spain, and even when they are making fun of us they use words and phrases typical of Mexico.
And yes, there is a Mexican Spanish, not accordng to me, but to many scholars that have written about it:
-El español mexicano durante la colonia: El paradigma verbal en el Altiplano Central. R Acevedo - 2000 - Universidad de Guadalajara
-Vocales caducas en el español mexicano. MJ Canellada, AZ Vicente - Nueva Revista de Filología Hispánica, 1960
-En torno a las vocales caedizas del español mexicano. L Blanch, M Juan - Estudios sobre el español de México. UNAM, México. 1983
-Una peculiar oposición entre 'le' y 'lo' en el español mexicano. Paulette Levy. Anuario de Letras, ISSN 0185-1373, Vol. 18, 1980 , pags. 263-268
-La r final del español mexicano y el sustrato nahua. JML Blanch, M Juan - Instituto Caro y Cuervo
-Las unidades melódicas en el español mexicano. KH Kvavik - Dialectología hispanoamericana. Estudios actuales, 1980
-El dialecto espanol de Rio Sabinas. Vestigios del espanol mexicano en Luisiana y Texas. JM LIPSKI - Nueva revista de filología hispánica, 1987
-Categorias gramaticales y pragmatica en el espanol mexicano y el peninsular. A Grindsted. MODERNA SPRAK, 94, Part 2 (2000): 205-213 Modern Language Teachers' Association of Sweden.
.... and many more...
VN
¡me canso manito que hay español mexicano!
I've lived in the USA for 63 years. I learned Castellano in High School Spanish Class. I can only say that there are different Spanish's. Castellano, Mexican. and USA. i.e. a simple match (fire): Castellano= fosforo? Mexican= serillo? USA = Mecha ? also: railroad train: Castellano/Mexican= ferrocarril? USA= tren. also: corn: Castellano= maize? Mexican(Aztec)/USA= elote also turkey: Castellano=pavo? Mexican (Aztec)/USA= huajolote.
The point being is that Spainards, Mexicans, USA Hispanics, and other nation's Hispanics tend to "nationalize" the Spanish language to fit their own native country.
Jose Carlos de Leon
EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
Join me
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx
> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:13:51 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ¡me canso manito que hay español mexicano!
>
¡me canso manito que hay español mexicano!
I understand your point, the reason why its not common to hear in Mexico
'hablo castellano' is b/c we all know we speak Castellano, its the only dialectin Mexico
actually its politically correct to call all the Spanish in the Americas Castellano,
who was the Monarchs who sent the conquistadors Isabel de Castilla. Just because people speak the language differently doesnt mean its different. I think you interpret the term Castellano as the accent from Spain, this is false. Enrique Iglesias and Vicente Fernandez both speak Castellano just as an example. I have many docuements, ie the census of mexicowhere it states people speak castellano in Mexico, I can send it to you if you like.
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx
> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:13:51 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ¡me canso manito que hay español mexicano!
>
> I've lived in Mexico for decades and I still have not met any Mexican who claims to speak Castellano, that term is mainy used n Spain because it is politically incorrect to call the language Spanish since there are other "Spanish languages" as catalán, gallego and vasco. We speak español, yet the Spanish we speak is different to the one spoken in other countries like Argentina and Spain, and even when they are making fun of us they use words and phrases typical of Mexico.
> And yes, there is a Mexican Spanish, not accordng to me, but to many scholars that have written about it:
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real academia de la lengua.. ¿castellana?
Hi! I know that castellano and español do indeed refer to the same language known as Spanish. However, pretty much everybody I know in Mexico calls the language español rather than castellano. That term is kind of an archaism in Mexico. In all Mexican primary schools, whether they are private or public, everybody has to use same the free textbooks provided by the government, and those regardng the language are named "Español". So, I'll dare to say thay in current Mexican Spanish, "castellano" is "español".
For me it is kind of funny that due to political correctness the only place were Spanish should not be called Spanish but Castillian is Spain. Yet, the Castillian language authorities in Spain are members of the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española".
Current Mexican Census questionnaires refer to the language as español rather than castellano, they actually assume everybody speaks Spanish, they only ask you if you speak "español" if you said you speak a native language:
http://www.inegi.org.mx/est/contenidos/espanol/cuestionarios/censos/C_c…
Makes you wonder, the yesteryear census workers wrote Castellano in their documents. Was the question, "do you speak Castillian?" and the answer yes; or was it "what language do you speak?" and whether they answered español or castellano they would write the latter?
Regards,
VN
Méjico vs. Mexico
I was raised spelling Mexico as Méjico. I asked this along time ago. Maybe its because
my parents are alteños. According to my grandfather (I try to paraphrase as best as I remember!)
I guess in Old Castilian the X was used for J, since the letter didnt exist but the sound did.
So the X made the J sound. When the conquistadores came they learned the people were
Mexica (Mesheeca) so they gave it a more Europeanized name, Mexico (except the X stood for sounds that didnt exist in Castilian, ie. SH. During the colony it was actually still pronounced Meshico, except it had the Castilian Whistle not actually SH like in English. When more Europeans were deciding where to go in America, thye would prob ask "Por que no vamos a Mexico (Mesico) (whistle). But at the same Mexico was really used. Mexico being Spain's principal colony usually was just reffered as New Spain, it was common usage. Then or eventually in the early colony the X slowly changed to the J and K sound. I guess there were rules on the J and K giving birth to modern Castilian. In NEw spain the J would be pronounced the same in Spain, the gargal (sounds like German?). During the last years of the colony Mexico was spelt as Mejico, eventually the MExican Criollos changed back to Mexico because for them the J sound was X. I am getting confused as I type! Its a difficult subject. Eventually down the line (today) parts of Mejico and Spain spell it as Méjico. Because its 'proper' usage by the Real Academia Española. Parts like Los Altos its very popular to spell it MEjico, I would think all alteños would spell it like that? Mariano Gonzalez Leal does as well. I know I get a bunch of comments why do you spell it like that? I tell people, its how my ancestors spelt it and how I learned. Since Los Altos is so high, we might have kept colonial stuff from Spain? I know my parents have a little tiny whistle when they talk. How I speak is how my parents speak, its the same basic concept, imagine since all alteños intermarried were the same family by blood just different last names. Im pretty sure we have our own little dialect going on. I do feel like an alteño eventhough botn in the US, i have learned the culture, raised in it, look like the typical alteño, lived there for a year, eat the food, speech, genealogy has helped me a lot feel proud of who my ancestors were a very proud and hard working people. Well not sure if this helps or at least sheds light! -Daniel Camino
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