This will be a study of Historical events of the Sephardic (Spanish) Jews who were brought over from Spain to the Americas and Mexico territory to escape Genocide. many of our Hispanic Ancestors have been linked with the Jewish people through Blood DNA Testing and Historical facts. I will include a website with names that have been linked with the Sephardic Jew and books which include much study and Historical information. I can be contacted at tennasalas@msn.com
Thank you,
Tenna Salas
Sephardic Jews
My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.
Sephardic Jews
Michael,
Check out the section titled "The Jewish Influence," on my website located at
http://www.patriciajcorbera.com.
Rufina Bernadetti Silva Mausenbaum is a fountain of information on the subject, as well as the articles written by Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias.
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael dickey"
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:49:04 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sephardic Jews
My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.
Newsletter--"OPERATION SERAPE"
Tenna Salas more links to Sephardism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXzXHJNWTDY
http://obadiahsrevelationtoday.blogspot.com/2009/11/operation-serape.ht…
where to purchase this book
Tenna Salas, You can purchase this book "The Last Exodus" at www.Amazon.com or you can go onto his website at http://www.4sephardim.com/
Zacatecas Link
Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. The primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.
Zacatecas Link
I remember seeing documentS wherE he was put on trial after his death. His casket was front and center as the y read the charges And confiscated his wealth. He was known as A devout christian who Also kept the sabbath
------Original Message------
From: tennasalas@msn.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: tennasalas@msn.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Zacatecas Link
Sent: Nov 9, 2009 11:05 AM
Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. Th
e primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.
Sephardic (Spanish) Jews
Tenna Salas
I live in Wichita, KS I just came back from Israel this past Saturday, I spent 10 days there It was beautiful, I purchased a book called the last exodus and it speaks of the Sephardic Jews returning back to there original roots. This book was written by Dell F. Sanchez. Dr. Sanchez has been an international speaker in Mexico, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Sapin and all across America. He has traveled to Israel two to three timeas a year since 1996. His last trip was devoted to field observation and personal interviews with Israelis all across Israel. He is the founder of former CEO of Hispanic Community Educational Television, Incorporated known as KHCE TV-23/cable 22. He is the executive producer and host of a 60 miniute Spanish program called, "Liberacion." Both are viewed daily in San Antionio and south and central TX. This is a little bit of who Dr. Sanches is, he mentions in his book that he had decided to watch a movie called Schindler's List. by Steven spielberg who portrayed one facet of the Jewish Holocaust that occurred during Hitler's revenge in the 1940's, His soul was bursting with such sad and grievous emotion. he says that he realized that there was indeed, some connection between those jews and his soul. his father, Delfino Sanchez 11, shared with him his new discovery regarding the true racial roots of his own father Delfino 1, his father was in his mid 70's when he finally found out a very well kept family secret-that as an infant, his Dad had been given up for adoption by father while he was a high ranking officer in the Mexican Military-who happened to be a Jew from Spain. Suddenly, he was able to see why his Sanchez clan was so peculiar, especially his own Dad. he began to investigate which led up to him writing this book.
There are many other publications about this subject his is only one of them.
here is a list:
Aliyah! The exodus Continues
Aliyah! El Exodo Continua
Sephardic Destiny
Destino del Defardim
Obadiah- The Despised prophet of Sephardim
abdias-El Profeta Despreciado del Sefardim
History of the Marranos by: Cecil Roth
"Sephardim-The Jews from Spain"
by: Paloma Diaz-Mas, (translated by Geroge K. Zucker)
"The Duke of Naxos-of the house nasi"
by: Cecil Roth
"History de la Inquisicion"
by Samuel vila
"Israel my Beloved"
by: Kay Arthur
"My people: the story of the Jews"
by Abba Solomon Eban
Royal blood
My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.
Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?
Rosie Cordova
Royal blood
A lot of people from los altos of jalisco descenD froM king enrique II and his brotHers fadrique And tello. Their Parents were the king alfonso of castile and his jewish mistress. She was a converso to catholicism.
Many of the 1st. European settlers in los altos de jalisco were already related many times over through these brothers or the hijar and frias clan, or the hurtado de mendoza clan, or the altamirano clan. I say clan but I mean families with multitude connections thRough intermarriage.
And they continued marrying family once in los altos. In my family tree I have 2nd and 3rd cousins marrying with occasionAl 1st cousins.
ThE strange part is that even though there is that jewish connection there have been some in. The family tree that were antisemitic. I know of at least 2 officials of the inquisition in my family tree.
R A Ricci
------Original Message------
From: rcordovamba@aol.com
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To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: rcordovamba@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 27, 2009 11:15 PM
My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.
Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?
Rosie Cordova
Royal blood
Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet
three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety
The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers
in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los
Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect
descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.
The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently
working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already
suspect who don Toribio's parents were.
The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores
and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano
de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano
de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano
and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.
I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today
were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.
I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.
I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend
from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.
Regards,
Daniel Camino
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Royal blood
Re: "I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico."
I am not sure how to take this whole thread. I read it and the only thing that comes to mind is the saying about the potato: the best part is underground. I prefer not being from royalty and thinking that many of us are the best part, and it doesn't really matter what is underground (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We can not chose the wombs we are born in. Having said this, genealogy is a fascinating topic.
Ed
Royal Blood
I'd like add my two cents worth about " Royal blood". The vast majority of
the "nobles' that settled in Mexico were *hidalgos *or* escuderos*. Hidalgo
was a class of lower nobility given very freely in Spain as there were no
lands attached to it or exemptions expected. Most were descendants of a
titled person who did not inherit the title, an example is every son who was
not the first born. Escudero was give for a military acheivment. To say
these people were *royal *, with the blood of kings and Queens is a stretch.
An excellent picture of what it meant to be a Spanish Hidalgo is found in
the book ; *A Nation of Shepards* by Daniel Lucero. It describes the journey
of Francisco Robledo from Spain to Mexico, then as part of the Onate
expedition to settle Santa Fe around 1600.
If you ask any middle or upper class person in Mexico about their family
origin, most will tell you their grandfather or his father came from Spain.
Then they will tell you that they are of noble birth. Almost all really have
no idea when or where that occured. It's a mass delusion that's become
ingrained in the national character.
Eric Robledo Edgar
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Royal Blood
Dear Eric;
There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.
For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will like it.
What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read of many people that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was a noble in the XIV C.
On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.
Finally, if you want to read which families belonged to the titled nobility in México there is "Estudios Genealógicos" by Ortega y Pérez-Gallardo.
Best regards,
Royal Blood
Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look out for it.
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:22 PM, wrote:
> Dear Eric;
>
> There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the
> Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely
> studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they
> had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions
> in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.
> For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you
> "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will
> like it.
>
> What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read
> of many Smiths that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was
> a noble in the XIV C.
> On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
Royal Blood
Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their ancestors came from
they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they said their grandfather
which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of course.
I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
(I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Royal Blood
This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
Daniel,
Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Royal Blood
Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho
Royal Blood
I found the comments from J. Antonio, Leon, and Eric (see below) very interesting, since in my research from Zacatecas to Santa Fe, New Mexico to Juarez I have found that my ancestors have been marrying into the same families at least since the late 1600s which is as far back as I can get. It had nothing to do with wealth or social position. They were all farmers, whether they owned haciendas or not. A few were officers stationed at presidios.
Starting in New Mexico almost 300 years ago, I can see that my ancestors were much like what J. Antonio describes in Nuevo Leon, where people were isolated, probably had Sephardic ancestry due to their customs, food, and an archaic Spanish that sounds so close to Ladino.
In Zacatecas I found that my father was misled to think that his great-grandfather, known as "el Frances", was not French, but from people who had been in Zacatecas for generations, all described as espanol, not a Frenchman among them. I think this is because the French had been there, and those are the only light-skinned, blue eyed people they knew and remembered. Because of the meztizaje, some dark people in a family were told "saliste puro indio", where their siblings were "gueros".
In Juarez, the Lower El Paso Valley in Texas, and the neighboring Mesilla Valley in southern New Mexico starting in the late 1600s when my ancestors escaped the Indian revolution in Northern New Mexico and resettled in those areas, just about all the families intermarried. This had nothing to do with "puresa de sangre" or royalty or wealth, I don't believe, but rather the isolation and the provincial mindset of the people themselves. The formed clans, as in Old England, Scotland, and Ireland.
Even here in the United States people joke about white trash or "rednecks" in the South and Appalachia who "marry their cousins" and are inbred. Those people are usually dirt poor. Does anyone remember the feuds between the Hatfield and McCoy clans several generations ago that started because a girl from one clan wanted to marry a boy from another clan? Shades of Romeo and Juliet.
Today there are people in Utah, Arizona, and Texas that isolate themselves as distinct Mormon clans, separate from mainstream Mormons, where it is known that the leaders act much like chieftans of old and decide that cousins should marry rather than marry out of their clans.
So, this intermarrying is not or has been just the custom of Altenos, but rather of people who are isolated and provincial regardless of color or economic/social status.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Antonio
Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho
Royal Blood
I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.
Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.
The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa
is french"
This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.
espanol is an iffy term.
espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.
I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society
in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico
this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled
espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
I guess i meant my YDNA!
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Royal Blood
Thank you Daniel...what is your mtDNA?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:21:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I guess i meant my YDNA!
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
Royal Blood
I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!
I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
Spain was the first melting pot and a lot of the families that we descend from did have a lot of french blood o r basque blood.
Some of The spanish families we descend from were not white. I have accumulated ample evidence of north african blood in some of the lines from spain. One of the lines was just recently discovered because of access to old family paPers that held family secrets. These papers were in sitting in a library that had not been touched for centuries.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 6:16 PM
I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.
Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.
The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa
is french"
This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.
espanol is an iffy term.
espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.
I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society
in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico
this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled
espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Royal Blood
I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
Daniel,
I have found that many Americans of Northern European descent (England, Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, Germany, etc) still don't consider those of Southern European descent (Spain, France, Portugal) as "white".
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Royal Blood
I know some still dont, the census does though. I think its ironic white basicallymeans white skin. Genetics have proven that English part of their genetic ancestry
came from Iberia (Spain) and arethe closest related tothe spaniards). Then Northern spain is mostly Celtic. I think it just shows how ignorant american societyreally is. -Daniel
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Royal Blood
One of our moorish ancestors is from northern spain. The king of aragon kidnapped him when he defeated his father. He raised as his own and then was allowed to marry into the kings family since he was not a biological son.
Another ancestor of alteno families is the grandson of the 2nd caliph of the almohads. He converted after witnessing a miracle. His children married spaniards and are ancestors of the frias and hijar families
Another ancestor of altenos claimed to be from northern spain but were from north africa with the grandmother being a mulata. In all genealogies that I have seen of this family that are on the internet they continue the lie that they were pure white
I have other true stories.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 10:08 PM
I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Royal Blood
I dont think no one is pure anything, its just a social concept. Like in Los Altos, the average claim
is they are full white, while this might be socially true of course we all came from Africa. The human race
originated in Africa. Socially, if you were white, then you were white, it didnt matter if you
had a great grandpa who was indio. This brings up la limpieza de sangre topic. If a european and
india had a kids (mestizo). If the mestizo married a white then the kid is (Castizo). If the Castizo
married white again then the kid would be 100% white socially wise. (enough too look like a regular
european). This is very difficult social topic to explain! This whole process might have even just be
avoided so they would have to deal with it by marrying inside the family. Going back to your
point of the moorish ancestor. The alteno would still be white, its too distant to even claim as your
culture. Its like me saying Im Polish, though I have an ancestor along time ago, it doesnt mean Im polish
I claim my Spanish ancestry more because I was raised with Spanish culture. This might be why even if they
have a moorish ancestor like 6 centuries ago, you arent moro your Spanish, what ever more blood you
have thats what you are. Of course you should be proud and recognize that moorish ancestor. But one thing
IS being moorish and another is being raised espanol. In my opinion white just means assimilation,
like in USA or Mexico if you passed as a white (no one would bother to disprove you) many mestizo
families in Mexico have darker and lighter children all in the same family. It works the same in the US
as long as you look white and claim european ancestry then your white. I havent met too many
people who descend from the Frias family only a handful. I havent connected
to them...possibly in the future, there area lot of unfinished lines in my tree!
-Daniel
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Royal Blood
I found this on the US census website
White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe)
Thank goodness we dont live in the most igorance of times, I know most of
the people I know do consider southern Europeans, (Portugues, Spanish,
Italians, French, someitmes GErmans and Greeks white now)
I know when part of my family immigrated from Mexico in the late 1800s early
1900s they were marked as white. But around the 1980s they were forced
to label hispanic/latino. Recently in the 90s since hispanic/latino is now just
a choice we went back to white american. Since the definition was clearly
stated: White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe).
_________________________________________________________________
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Sephardic (Hispanic) Jews
Perhaps you will find this article interesting:
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/12/04/ciencia/1228409780.html
Royal Blood (YDNA - mtDNA)
Daniel,
Not sure if this is your reply to my question about what haplogroup is your mtDNA, but if it is... are your DNA test results posted online, and if so where?
thank you,
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:18:49 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!
I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!
-Daniel
Royal Blood
Eric,
I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.
I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.
Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
From: Alicia Carrillo
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 8:22 AM
Eric,
I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.
I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.
Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Being a Mexican
To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.
The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.
Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Being a Mexican
Beautifully said. Thank you.
-Esperanza
On 12/3/09 1:59 PM, "Rick Rodriguez" wrote:
> To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
> was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
> with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
> connection with the place I feel I belong to.
>
> The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
> I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
> were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
> find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
> ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
> none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
> where I come from, how I am built.
>
> Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
> I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
> other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
> that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
> recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
> Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
> these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
> I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
>
> So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
> Garcia
> Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
> Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
> not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
> grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
> with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
> indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
>
> I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
> (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
> south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
>
> Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
> "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
> race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
> families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
> African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
> mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
> to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
> meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
>
> I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
> everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
> Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
> and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
> they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
> understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
> gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
> from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
> very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
> they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
> that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
> find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
> line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
> Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
> me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
> love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
>
> I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
> Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
> disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
> this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
> the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
> sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
> a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
> good work!
>
> Linda in Boulder City
Being a Mexican
Well, Rick, I can understand why you feel more Mexican, being that you now live in Mexico, and I don't know if your parents were born in America or Mexico, but my experience is different. Maybe you were raised closer to the culture, but I experienced "culture shock" in Mexico, not knowing proper Castellan, etc.
My mother, born in 1902, was a Piro-Manso-Tewa Indian whose ancestors were from New Mexico, the Lower El Paso Valley, and Juarez since the late 1600s. Her father was born in America, too, in 1878. They did have Spanish ancestors too, and those came up North with Onate in 1598. Maybe some were hidalgos, but all I have learned is that most of the men were officers stationed in presidios from Santa Fe to Parral. Their culture and language is different than that in Mexico, though it was all Mexico once, but it was an outpost for centuries and the people there became a breed all their own, with their own food, customs, language.
I related more to my mother's relations since during WWII we lived for years with them in New Mexico while my father, born in Zacatecas, was working on building ships in Oakland, California. My father criticized my mother's Spanish so much, and she didn't like his relatives, so I didn't grow up speaking Spanish or listening to Mexican music, etc. My father's heart was in Jerez which they left in 1913 during the Revolution. I had not only a cultural gap with him, but a generational one. He was old enough to be my grandfather. He was too strict, didn't feel girls should go to school, talk, date, etc.
My husband, born in Texas in 1935, comes from Altenos from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco, and his pedigree includes all the surnames prominent there, and not one ancestor was anything other than espanol. I know that his mother's family had to have been conversos, but they would have been livid to hear about that, they were so "catolicos". However, his father was born in America in 1909.
My husband and I went to see his maternal aunt in Mexico City in 1968 where she was a profesora. She looked very espanola, with her green eyes, etc. She asked my husband to go with her to search for some of her male students in the university; their parents had pleaded to her to help find their sons since the police, etc. weren't forthcoming. There had been riots then and many students were killed or "disappeared" never to be heard from again. My husband was so disgusted, he has never wanted to return. Also his aunt was not very welcoming to me; she stated that no one in her family had ever married an Indian before. (yo sali pura india). My husband does not feel "Alteno" though I have traced his ancestry clear back to the late 1600s in Aguascalientes. He is a former Marine, a Korean War vet; his father was a Marine too, who fought for the Stars and Stripes during WWII, so his heart is here in America.
It would be nice to go and visit or even move to the places where your ancestors were from, but haven't you ever wanted to go to Spain where they originated, being that you know exactly where in Spain they originated (in Leon or Castilla)? Why does Mexico claim your heart and spirit more than Spain? Perhaps your parents influenced you.
You know the country that I feel that way about? New Mexico. I guess that part of the world calls to my spirit the way Jalisco calls to yours; I love the food from there, the customs so integrated with the Pueblo Indian culture. For Christmas I put up my "New Mexico" tree with ornaments I have gathered made in the Pueblos that reflect that culture. My cousin is a war captain for our tribe of Piro-Manso-Tewa. He has photos of our ancestors dressed in native wear, and tried to explain some of the customs to me, the fetishes, the tribal drum. Our grandfathers attended schools for Indians in Oklahoma because the whites didn't want them in their schools in NM.
You say you got into genealogy to find out how Mexican you were? How Aztec you were? I just went into it to find out my ancestors' names, where and how they had lived, etc. I once was fascinated by the Aztec culture, I visited all those pyramids, etc. But my father said we might not be Aztec on his side, and that anyway the Aztecs were a cruel, savage culture that subjugated other tribes, and that I should be as fascinated with his Spanish or French blood. (Actually, his ancestors, the Olague, came from Navarre, and they were Basques). He just thought of "Mexican" as a race, though he told me we were "mestizo", mixed race.
What a pity I can't visit Mexico (my husband abhors it, or rather he abhors the cruel and corrupt government). I've been to Jerez, and I would like to see where you live, since that is where my husband's ancestors are from. Why don't you post some photos of where you live and work?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Rodriguez
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.
The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.
Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
Being a Mexican
Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!
Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans
hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same
deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because
my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.
I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom
say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our
own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont
believe I speak Spanish!
I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant
of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think
Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!
I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!
Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool
to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding
alteno provinces.
-Daniel
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Being a Mexican
Daniel,
I don't have my husband's trees in a format to send you yet. I only have all his lines in hand-written pedigree charts because I am still in the process of trying to break down some brick walls. As soon as I get it all into my PAF program, I will send you a descendancy report.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!
Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans
hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same
deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because
my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.
I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom
say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our
own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont
believe I speak Spanish!
I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant
of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think
Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!
I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!
Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool
to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding
alteno provinces.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&sli…
Being a Mexican
Thanks Emilie!!!
Id be glad to help if you need any, Ill have some extra time soon!
-Daniel
Send me your brick walls, I have a huge alteno database! and its still growing.
>From 1500s-1890s.
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Being a Mexican
Don't get me wrong Emilie, I'm not saying you're not Mexican or that I'm
more Mexican than you or others, I was just sharing the fact that I'm very
proud to be a Mexican, I apologize if any part of my comment made you feel
uncomfortable.
Some sociologists have come to the conclusion that most Mexicans living in
Mexico lack of an own identity and that this crisis is the cause of many of
our social issues when we compare ourselves to other countries, but that's a
different issue that would take forever to cover. I want to think that I
don't have this problem.
I was born in Los Angeles and I was raised by my parents (both born in
Mexico). I spoke Spanish at home and English everywhere else, this helped me
to learn both languages much easier. We came to live to Mexico when I was
10, and I went back y myself to the US when I was 20. I've lived close to 20
years in Los Angeles and less than that here in Mexico, but I feel my place
is here in Los Altos, it's hard to explain. I just responded to the voice in
my heart that told me that I had to be down here.
So, I guess I didn't choose to be a Mexican, I would say that Mexico chose
me to be its son.
Sure, I would love to travel someday to Talavera, Cuenca, Albornoz, Leon,
Castilla and the rest of Spain someday, when I have the resources to do so,
visit and pay my respects to my ancestor's burial sites. I would also have
to visit France, Italy, England, Germany, Denmark, Egypt, Africa, and all
the places my paternal ancestors were from, so I guess I'll just stick to
Los Altos for now, but it still doesn't mean I'm not a proud Alteno and
Mexican, I love my country, not necessarily the people running it. I want to
know more about my country's history as well, so if I were to go on a voyage
around the world, I would have to start by traveling my country first...
don't you agree? I have so much respect and awe for native American history
and their cultures, it's too bad I don't have that much native blood in me.
The tribes that lived here in Los Altos before the conquest were from
Chichimeca origins, which I know so little about.
I'm currently doing research here in Los Altos, and I develop websites
during my breaks. You can see pictures of some towns and people from Los
Altos de Jalisco in the following websites:
www.Valledeguadalupe.com (Valle de Guadalupe, where I live)
www.Hechoenlachona.com (Encarnacion de Diaz)
www.miJalisco.com
Well, gotta get back to work.
Best regards,
Rick
Being a Mexican
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Being a Mexican
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Being a Mexican
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Being a Mexican
Thank you Ruben ..... that has always bothered me. To often "America" and
"The United States" are used interchangeably and we forget that America is a
continent that is home to many different countries not just the US.
-Angelina-
--------------------------------------------------
From: "ruben casillas moreno"
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:52 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
> America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
> are amaricans.
>
> Ruben Casillas M.
>
Being a Mexican
I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody in here refers to US citizens as Americans.
In spanish it happens something similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US citizens.
That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico. One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.
Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That was not my intention.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno wrote:
From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Being a Mexican
Hi Steve:
I agree with you 100%. It boggles my mind when I hear people, that should
know better, referring to this country as "America".
A day doesn't go by when I don't hear government officials, including all
the way up to the president, media people, even in the Spanish language
channels, making comments like: He came from ( you pick any country south of
the border) to "America".
It is sad, sad, sad...Perhaps this country should have been named with a
short, quick easy, to pronounce name. "United States of America" takes too
long to pronounce and write.
And by the way, I wonder how many people know that the official name of
Mexico ( with an "X", not a "J" ) is: "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" If you
don't believe me, look at any offical document or currency.
My dos centavos worth
John Gonzalez.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Apodaca"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 20:59
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter
was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the
whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody
in here refers to US citizens as Americans.
In spanish it happens something similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear
people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover
all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people
all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US
citizens.
That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico.
One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from
all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he
from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess
that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.
Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That
was not my intention.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno
wrote:
From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to
recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on
my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California
border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and
third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always
refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of
their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina.
I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican
immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of
these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San
Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess
what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I
do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people,
etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure,
the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the
way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an
American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the
US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little
bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and
traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well.
What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's
run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my
family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to
poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana
made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio
Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the
Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Indian Tribes native to Mexico
Jaime Rendon Hernandez
Linda,
According to Gary Felix of the Genealogy of Mexico Hispanic Surname Project Mexico, results from Y DNA Testing are beginning to show common genetic markers of Indigenous peoples who claim they are of the same tribe, but say that they are not related. In other words different Native tribes in Mexico are beginning to distinguish themselves from other tribes by their distinctive Y (male chromosome) genetic markers. Once more Y data is collected there may be a time when we will be able to know from exactly what tribe we descend in Mexico. So do not despair Linda!!
I am not sure, but I think the MTDNA X (female chromosome) is also showing a genetic pattern! DNA testing is good for people who have no paper trail of their ancestry!
Being a Mexican
Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
"So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and
I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly
any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of
mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't
most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that
across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is
America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal
roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.
If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche.
Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't
have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups
think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico,
because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they
became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available
to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and
would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together
and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes
and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled.
We do
good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Being a Mexican
I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects with such labels...
> From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
>
> Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
>
> "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Being a Mexican
There is a form of this "royal blood" syndrome for native people in Mexico.
My grandmothers oldest sister was from her mother's first marriage. Her
contention was that her family decsended from La Malinche, also known as
Dona Marina, the translator, advisor and mistress of Cortes.
Eric Robledo Edgarwrote:
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:39 PM, tony cobos
>
> I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas
> pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away
> becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if
> anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects
> with such labels...
>
> > From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
> >
> > Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
> >
> > "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> > your
> > heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> > claims
> > its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> > because
> > I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
> >
> > Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> > Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
I can't tell you their place of origin, but they have been discussed by
a dozen or more publications... It was believed that they were distant
cousins to the Guachichiles and split off from them. That was discussed
in that one book "People of the Peyote." It's quite a fascinating
theory and may very well be true.
Have you heard of it?
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if
you don't already have it). This is something on the web, but I think
the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:
Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the
states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol"
is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly
a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika.
Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling
culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many
people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the
Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but
scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the
sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi,"
meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol
and non-Huichol individuals.
Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre
Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango.
This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′
W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava
flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged
terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer
cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately
600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists
of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the
Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with
oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub
vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia,
Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The
herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.
Read more:
http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
Hello Johnny -
Thank you so much for the impressive information! Only question I have is what book are you reffering to?
Again, my thanks,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:49 PM
Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if you don't already have it). This is something on the web, but I think the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:
Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol" is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika. Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi," meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol and non-Huichol individuals.
Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′ W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately 600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia, Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.
Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galic
Thank you Mr. Schmal. I will enjoy reading your articles on this subject. I have read many of your articles and find them so informative.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: johnnypj@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message----->
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie>>
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Royal Blood
Emilie,
>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.
I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .
For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Royal Blood
Thank you Esperanza. You know, you mentioned something very interesting; you said "I have also read that other indigenous people were brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the Philippines".
You know, I am often mistaken for Filipino. I thought it was because of my Pueblo Indian blood that gives me my Asian eyes, since they say that American natives originated in Asia and came through Alaska. Now I am wondering, were some of my father's "indian" ancestors mixed with Filipinos brought to Zacatecas by the Spaniards? Is that where my looks came from and not from my mother's ancestors in New Mexico? I know that the Spaniards' ships brought booty from the Phillipines, but now you tell me they also brought slaves from there.
I am looking at a photo of my father when he was 17. I was born when he was almost 40, so he had changed a lot when I knew him, he got bald, had dentures, etc. but in the photo of him at 17 he does look Filipino! What a shame I had no brothers or male cousins close enough to get their DNA (my father died in 1966). My DNA won't tell me a thing about my father's ancestors.
I am also wondering about the Chinese in Zacatecas. My father was very prejudiced, and he told me he didn't want me to be friends with "Chinos" in college (they were from Taiwan), because he didn't like them. I asked why, and he said, "because in Jerez they wanted to marry our women". I didn't know they had Chinese in Jerez, or did they back when he lived there in 1903-1913? Or was it just a story told by his forbears who thought the Filipino slaves were Chinese (Chinos)?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: latina1955@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Emilie,
>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.
I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have) .
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900
For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Royal Blood
I had learned this too, like the USA, Mexico is a diversed countries, all types of European, Asian,
Middle Eastern, African, Native Americans all live in Mexico now. It has become one of the most diversed countries
in America.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
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Royal Blood
This occurs specially with middle and upper class mexicans
(usually espanoles) even if they have one ancestor who is
indio they wont claim it because its not enough for them.
It also depends on how were raised too, if its mostly
Spanish culture would we not identify as spanish?
I have found 1 or two indio ancestors from the 1600s
and 1700s. Then theres also the possible Moctezuma/Esparza
connection, one black ancestor and one jewish ancestor.
For me that was 200-300 years ago if not more. Its not close
hence why I dont claim it, but I am aware they are there!
And then theres the dicho my grandpa always says,
mas espanol mas mejicano.
Which is ironic because Mejico is a pluricultural nation.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
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Royal Blood
My father's grand mother's family was descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas, the de Andas and the Altamiranos, and so many noble and royal families. Such a great legacy. We need to share this information with our children. Just sharing, Marge
Royal blood
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Royal blood
What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 2:36 PM
Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet
three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety
The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers
in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los
Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect
descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.
The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently
working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already
suspect who don Toribio's parents were.
The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores
and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano
de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano
de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano
and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.
I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today
were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.
I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.
I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend
from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.
Regards,
Daniel Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
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Royal blood
Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did
during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd
cousins that alomst are idential to me!
-Daniel
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
Royal blood
I am talking about the 150 years before coming to the americas
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 4:57 PM
Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did
during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd
cousins that alomst are idential to me!
-Daniel
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
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Royal blood
oh yeah most Spaniards were already related through royal lines and such.
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
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Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Royal blood
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Royal blood
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Royal blood
Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2
Royal blood
La prima es para que se exprima!!!
J. Gonzalez
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Rodriguez"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 17:29
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2
Royal blood
How sexists! Y el primo que?
Just kidding guys. Saludos!